And there we go folks… The Horde wouldn’t want an unredeemable undead banshee in their ranks. Sylvanas did nothing for the Horde, it was all one sided and people don’t make one sided alliances.
Yeah so we pretty much agree that Orcs and Taurens had no particular reason to welcome her into their ranks. This random decision has been made for gameplay reasons, end of story (and this argument ends, we all agree, and I’m tired and I’m going to bed now 
)
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Sorry that you have to deal with these stubborn fools… I’m getting a little tired too.
I’m actually very proud of you because for once you’re grasping Warcraft lore as a whole series rather than sitting with your arms folded atop the Warcraft 3 hill. You’re making progress.
Initially, maybe not. But if we wanted to zoom the lens back it could’ve also potentially been for strategic reasons. If night elves threw their lot in with the Alliance and Theramore still has whatever ties to the Alliance, it would do better to have some turf back over in the Eastern Kingdoms. Even if it’s a foot in the door.
Forsaken also paved the way for getting blood elves into the Horde.
EDIT: In the long run though after everything’s said and done, probably not worth it to have had Forsaken around.
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Yeah I know that argument too, but honestly, there’s too much stuff against the Forsaken anyway. I think Thrall would find other ways to set foot in the Eastern Kingdoms (the Frostwolves, or even the Amani?). Or maybe he wouldn’t even care, because his home is Durotar and he doesn’t give a crap about Lordaeron ^^ It all goes back to gameplay reasons (which I can understand, from a developer point of view)
Maybe the Forsaken should have been a third faction? A NPC faction, that you would defeat eventually (Sylvanas being the ultimate boss, in the Lordaeron City raid dungeon)? I don’t know…
It was a pleasure, actually. They’re not fools, I don’t always agree with them but they raised good points and the conversation was interesting.
Edit: But now I’m going to bed for real
I don’t think Sylvanas even met an orc during the entirety of Warcraft 3… maybe in Warcraft 2 when they were attacking her homeland but that’s about it.
I don’t know how you could come to the conclusion of “strategic reasons” that isn’t even in the question. They tried that back in the second war, using undead to fight against the Humans didn’t work, why would they expect it to work this time?
Also the orcs cutting lumber in Ashenvale doesn’t make sense either, they did it once, with Grom Hellscream and this was before they teamed up with the night elves (humans cut down the forests too). Afterwards they could have recieved their lumber from Mulgore or something.
Reminds me of the time you thought I called Khadgar a warlock.
What strategic advantage could the Forsaken have? They have a dead, contested, plagued land with barely any fertile land to grow food due to the plague, a very hostile land filled with undead everywhere. Who would want to own that territory?
The Orcs were content with what they had, they even had Rexxar with them and his Ogres, even though they weren’t officially pert of the Horde, they helped each other out and shared a friendship. The Horde was powerful and prosperous by the end of Frozen Throne, the Forsaken were barely holding together. Sylvanas relied on temporary assistance in Warcraft 3 to take the capital.
I’m off to sleep anyways… so I won’t be able to argue further for a while. Be sure to anticipate my response should you continue to argue further.
Well heres another.
Why would Lordaeron Forsaken rally under Sylvanas? They had no reason to appoint her leader either.
Gameplay reasons. We both agree here.
I never said the lore justification was good. I said it was plausible, and thats what it is.
Like you called the original Warcraft 3’s story dog poop and Reforged a carpet that’s placed over it?
Do you not have eyes to read with? I clearly implied that World Of Warcraft’s story is dog poop.
Because Sylvanas was the only one with an agenda: Get revenge on Arthas.
None of the others even had a plan.
It isn’t plausible for the Forsaken to join the Horde whatsoever, there is no disputing this, the Naga have more chance of joining the Horde than the Forsaken.
The Naga had no reason joining Illidan either.
Read the War Of The Ancients trilogy, you’ll see why the Naga join forces with Illidan when you read it.
Yes, outside explanation written years later.
Which is a terrible way to tell a story, wouldnt you say?
Its almost like … it should be explained in TFT. If only they could go back and clarify it somehow, hm…
Well they seek arcane power, which Illidan has… and knows how to get hold of.
It’s the same reason why Kael joins Illidan really.
Anyone who wanted power would join Illidan if his methods were ethical and accepted by them. The Naga do not care for his methods.
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The Naga used to be Highborne Night Elves, and so did Illidan. They all crave for magic and they share a common background, with the Well of Eternity and stuff like that.
And the explanation didn’t come years later. Unless I’m mistaken, official lore could be found back in those years, somewhere on the internet (don’t remember where I got it, maybe on Blizzard’s Warcraft 3 website?). And the first book came out in March 2004, not long after TFT’s release (July 2003).
However, even if it’s not a retcon, outside explanation is a very bad way to tell a story, I totally agree.
Actually, a huge part of Warcraft lore isn’t found directly in the games. For example, in WoW, you need to read books or comics to understand what happenned after WotLK (Magni Bronzebeard turned into stone, Camp Taurajo destroyed, Southshore conquered by the Forsaken, etc. IIRC).
Same goe for the history of Khadgar and Medivh, Rhonin and Alexstrasza, Thrall… I was pretty confused when I first played Warcraft 3, because I had no idea who Thrall was, and I wondered for a bit why the Horde wasn’t the baddies anymore 
I’m definitely not a fan of that storytelling method.
In my opinion, if explanations like that could be provided in Reforged, I wouldn’t mind so much. If it’s well implemented, it could be a nice and valuable addition. As long as it doesn’t involve retcons… 
Many games present us with a character without a fully developed background. Thrall is no exception, same with the Naga’s appearance.
Which is my point in this matter.
War3 is inconsistent in characterizations to the point where it can be criticized for being built on assumptions.
We assume Thrall is leader. We assume Vashj allied or knew Illidan. We assume Sylvanas wants to take over Lordaeron. We arent given ample reasons why without outside explanation, we just assume the motivations and run with it.
Naga, for example. One interpretation here is arcane power. Elsewhere, its because Aszhara willed it because of Old God whispers. This is an ongoing debate with recent events like BFA and upcoming Najzatar, people speculating what Aszaharas true motives in the world are. This has been something left unanswered even up to now.
I would welcome less ambiguity for the sake of a more coherent narrative, though I am also a fan of the original adventure, as nonsensical as some parts were.
Stop right there.
Sylvanas was not a newly introduced character in TFT, Vashj and Thrall were newly introduced.
You can’t compare the two, that’s just illogical.
With her transition to undeath she may as well be a new character. She acts nothing like her RoC self, wouldn’t you agree? Her transition is what leads us to assume new motives. We aren’t given a reason why she does anything in TFT. We’re just given exposition about a tormented freedom.
Where are her motivations otherwise? Oh right, Dreadlords? Which is also an assumption. We have never been given official reason where her power-hunger actually comes from. It is, has and always been assumed. This is due to War3’s complete ambiguity on the situation.