Yes, this indeed a thing that exists. You get a gold star.
But how is it plausible that a bunch of monsters from another world - their race tainted by demon blood - team up with a bunch of other people that practice dark voodoo rituals and cannibalism while also teaming up with small greedy and almost reprehensibly destructive creatures, then all three of those wind up teaming up with nomadic minotaurs that practice shamanism who just want to be left alone?
Oh wait. Orcs changed once Thrall became warchief. Darkspears stopped the practice of cannibalism. Goblins, at least for a time under Gazlowe, kind of reigned it in and were very beneficial to the Horde (construction of Orgrimmar says āhiā), and tauren probably wouldnāt have joined Thrallās Horde if they didnāt show change.
Itās almost like change (in character and narrative) can happen! Like how the Forsaken, at least after The Frozen Throne and beforeā¦ letās say Wrath of the Lich King, more came off as ādonāt mess with us we donāt mess with youā.
Orc warlocks were around in Classic World of Warcraft. They even had the Cleft of Shadow in Orgrimmar to hang out in.
What really cracks me up is you losing the entire context of that where heās referring to the Thrall era Horde because Sylvanas has gone so far with her own ambitions.
I donāt even understand how humans could even learn Warlock magic to begin withā¦ except maybe for medivh who was posessed by Sargeras which would explain things.
Itās plausible in that War3 set the precedent for -Enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Night Elves allying with Orcs who killed their demigod? No way would they- oh, they did. Orcs allying with Humans who persecuted them? Humans working with Orcs who ravaged their lands? No way would they - oh, Demons.
This is the āDeath of Supermanā. It opened a can of worms that we canāt close. Thatās why I donāt put War3 on a pedestal. Without War3, we wouldnāt so easily accept flimsy alliances because no precedent was set for it to happen.
The goblins in Warcraft 2 were slaves to the horde, not allies, many of the goblins never even got involved, much like how the dragons were slaves to the Horde also.
In Warcraft 3, they would work for anyoneā¦ for the right price at least. Hence why they are obtained via shops.
Plus those races had a lot to offer to the Horde. The forsaken had nothing to offer and were a nuisance to the Horde.
Iām not sure the Trolls would know about that. They had some more urgent matters to tackle. And even so, Thrall had worked very hard to earn his raceās redemption.
Cannibalism? I might be wrong, but I have never seen trolls eating each other.
What makes you think they want to be left alone? The Orcs helped the Taurens (defending their village, escorting the kodosā¦). Cairne wants to pay them back, he says so in the campaign. Also, they share common values about shamanism, the spirits, honour, etc.
Trolls and Taurens are much, much more believable in the Horde than the Forsaken. Actually, in 20 years itās the first time I read someone questionning that, unless you would do it for the sake of arguing? No way, it doesnāt sound like you
The point is, the Forsaken in the Horde is not a coherent part of the lore. It does not make sense in any way. Unless you have something more convincing than āthings changeā.
Yes, and that was stupid too. Iāve already mentionned that.
Also Iād like to point out that Cannibalism is not necessarily against the Hordeās constitution. If Trolls do it ethically then thereās not an issue.
Working with undead? Now that does go against the Hordeās constitution because they represent the very thing that destroyed their homeland.
The Orcs judged the Taurens based on one skirmish and the Taurens allied themselves willingly without fully regarding the tepid nature of the Orcs, or the wily uncontrollable behaviour that existed within Grom. They allied with Orcs who willingly gave themselves up to the Demon Curse a second time.
The Tauren are also living and breathing and obey the laws of Nature.
The Forsaken do none of those things.
Think about that.
Also part of the reason why Thrall allied with the Tauren was because he wanted to live in their landsā¦ It would be rude for them to just settle there and say āThis is our territory now, sod off!ā Thrall isnāt like that, Thrall is diplomatic.
A deal was made for the Horde to ally themselves with the Tauren in exchange for a place to call home and the Tauren accepted it because they needed help against the Centaur and they had similar beliefs.
Thatās not the point you were trying to make initially. You donāt understand how humans learn Fel magic. Itās a good thing that thereās a novel from 2002 called āThe Last Guardianā that has Medivh discussing it with Khadgar. You should see if you can find a copy and sit down with it for a nice little read. My favourite of the three Warcraft novels from that time, actually.
Which is the funny thing about arguing against what races should or shouldnāt be a part of the Horde. You know, a bunch of globetrotting misfits just trying to survive? If orcs had the chance to change and did, why canāt other races?
The Scourge (and by extension, the Forsaken) were pawns made by the Burning Legion.
Kind of like how orcs were pawns made by the Burning Legion. Oh wait.
But the Taurens didnāt have to ally with the Orcs. They could have rejected them. The Alliance was based on the Taurens having few allies and needing the help.
Which is the position the Forsaken were placed in at the beginning of WoW to garner them into the Horde. Itās a flimsy explanation but itās one that is paralleled to War3. Yes, itās absolutely shoehorning, and not a natural progression at all, but it is plausible given the Tauren already have made alliances with a cursed race with a caveat of helping them deal with their past.
At the time the Forsaken joined, the Tauren did not know if the Forsaken were irredeemable.
Again, the point I make is if it happened in War3, then they opened up the possibility for it to happen in the future. TBH both Alliance and Horde accepts ācursedā victims into their ranks, so itās not something exclusive to the Horde.
It seems like a simple skirmish to us players, because the game is short. But if it were reality, Orcs and Taurens probably spent weeks together in the Barrens, from the defense of the tauren village to the arrival point of the kodo caravan.
I have the Warcraft Archiveā¦ I have read the Last Guardian and I know that Khadgar learned from Medivhā¦ but there is no proof that Khadgar chose to take up warlock magicā¦ he was still a mage last I checked.
Again, I implore you to reread my post so you can understand it. I didnāt say Khadgar was a warlock. I said Medivh EXPLAINS it to Khadgar. How it could happen.
The Tauren were struggling against the centaur, an alliance with the Horde was convenient for that reason, it helped them protect their people from the centaur.
The Horde didnāt needā¦ nor want the Forsaken and the Forsaken were in no position to sail to Kalimdor to meet the Horde. Nor did they even know where the Horde was.
Sylvanas could have allied with the Dreadlords if she wanted to but she declined. If she wonāt ally with the Dreadlords, why would she ally with the Horde? Itās the same thing really, she wanted independence and independence comes at a cost.
Ok then, what did Sylvanas do to earn the Forsakenās redemption? What proof did she provide to show that they have changed?
And it still does not give any answer about the fact that they live on a totally different continent (youād need weeks just to travel the ocean) and that the undead keep using dark magic.
Oh, and by that time Sylvanasā right arm is a demon.
Oh boy this is the best question you could possibly ever ask.
Plus if Sylvanas was to sail anywhere, it would be to Northrendā¦ in pursuit of Arthas, perhaps she could find allies there? Who knows? At the time, Northrend wasnāt completely fleshed out. She had no interest in travelling to Kalimdor.
@Triceron + @KingOmelette you guys can try to justify this all you like, it doesnāt change the real reason why Sylvanas joined the horde: Gameplay reasons.
She didnāt and thatās why, ever since even Wrath of the Lich King, she has been continually in question and dancing around the crosshair. Admittedly even for me itās a bit late for this to be happening (was hoping for something in Cataclysm, honestly) but she really needs to get hers in Battle For Azeroth. Anything less than destruction is probably gonna ruffle peopleās feathers.
