Misinformation regarding the Reforged models. (MegaThread)

I tried to respond to a fellow member scrolling around the forums commenting that the models are the only good thing out of the game and the rest is just bad or mismanagement but since my response grew large enough i decided to dedicate a standalone post regarding it.

The models look fantastic in your eyes but they are one of the core problems with the game.

They do not belong to the game they are made for. i debated many people on the issue of models, pointing critique on the artstyle is something i left behind because its subjectivity and the amount of different stubborn opinions on all sides drives the conversation out of a conversation and into a war.

Even though it would go against my bias, as some point out the Reforged models are “Objectively Good” but there is some arguments for that, beforehand i should point out the Reforged models looking objectively good, they have a lot of work put into them, exquisitely crafted silhouettes with an overwhelming level of detail.

With that said lets get into why the models are such a pain in the butt for this game:

If you need to take the models out in an abstract context outside of the game to justify that they are objectively “good” you’re missing something here.

The models of Reforged are by far one of the worst decisions for the game they are made in. that doesn’t make them anything to be fair.

It just makes them useless. or bloatware if you will, some can even say objectively bad if it is properly stated within the right context, which it is because its unable to be outside of the context of THE GAME. itself.

But the reality in my opinion is, there is no such thing as objectively bad or good models, the only objectivity is if the models fit the game. and the Reforged models objectively do not fit the game. functionally, visually, and performance wise.

Do the visuals and models in Ori the wisp or other 2.5-D games like Trine look amazing, magical and attractive ? yes.
Do they belong in Red Dead Redemption or Grand Theft Auto ? no. and vice versa.

This is the problem with the Reforged models but unlike the above example i will delve deeper into how does this all play out and how Blizzard at large failed to understand how Warcraft 3 evolved and what it needed.

• An intro to the problem:

As i stated, again, i don’t really care in what artstyle they come in, big shoulders, small shoulders, no shoulders, naked.

The only opinion on art that i can give, and i assume people who are fans of Blizzard made games and their visuals can also give is:

I just want them to look polished, and clean, Blizzard game models never looked like battle damaged units with cluttered details, dents, rusts and chips and splashes all over the models, that’s about it. its a perfectly reasonable counter argument that raises the question that why did Blizzard betray this code of honor, not even for a new game but a remaster that is suppose to transition a sense of faith to the original game.

Oh and most importantly handpainted textures that do not rely on the lightning engine, i know this is a contested argument because everyone and their mother says STORM YOU DUMB IDIOT ALL HD MODELS RELY ON LIGHTNING ENGINE NOW.

Okay, calm down sunshine, BLIZZARD models are a standout to this argument, and i believe this decision caused better performance and less eye pain when playing all of their games :^)

Do not be surprised if people raise dislikes towards the visuals of a game and that of a company that rooted itself in a form of visuals in their games, then proceeded to completely betray it in a new project.

If someone needs to put in all these cluttered details on their work just to prevent it looking bland, then i’m sorry but they are just a poor designer and they cover that fact by splashing a coat of useless details on something. and this is especially true for the situation of the Reforged models.

• Lets cut deep:

Now lets get into the objectivity of the wrongs of the Reforged models, to understand this you need to understand how Warcraft 3 evolved, over many years it was understood as a light weight real time strategy game with a hardcore melee (melee refers to the default game) and custom games community, both cheering for their respective niches.

One of the many benefits of the old models of the game was that they were easy to modify and re-use with different textures, and easy to use as a template for new models. the simplicity of the visuals also helped a great deal with that, its old lightning engine not exactly the best or the most praise worthy it did highlight a value in the visuals of the game.

Warcraft 3’s vanilla visuals supports the artist expressing how a model PERFECTLY looks without the game engine getting in the way of that with its lightning.

So if the artist paints metal glow on a shoulderpad of a Footman it will remain there forever with no interference, so how good the model looks is how good the author drew its texture and wrapped it perfectly like a gift around the model.

This is untapped art potential right here, and instead of Reforged expanding on this. they make a system in which first the models look worse without the ingame settings, then they look worse or good depending on the ever changing lightning reflected upon them in an RTS game that is meant to keep visual integrity and not suffer massive framerate problems with numbers on the screen.

This in a nutshell represents how i feel about the new visual overhaul and how it impacted the game.

:point_up_2: My own quotes regarding this matter, many of the people who are falsely blinded by the visuals of Reforged always have some close comparison screenshot in their head often taken from Blizzard sources or otherwise that showcase the models of Reforged in their “Perfect” lightning plus with a little photoshop work for added eyecandy, compared to the original models all the while they’re zoomed in extremely close in an angle that is quite literally impossible to replicate in the actual game unless you view the models through the world editor.

But lets put that aside, Blizzard failed to understand these points, and they directed LemonSky to produce models that harmed this games visual distinction, unit readability ingame, difficulty of modifying the models because of unnecessarily increased complexity. performance/framerate issues, and model file size issues.

Visual Distinction and Unit Readability ingame: With the increased amount of details splashed everywhere on the models, its hard to identify iconic units and characters. especially when they are put togather in a fight. the game starts to look like a giant mess instead of everything standing out in their own regard.

With poor choices of team color positions on the models, and not enough care for simple and impactful difference in between them, the “great” amount of details serve very little in a game where 90% of the time you’re not looking ANYTHING from the “perfect” screenshot comparisons of false marketting, then you start to notice the blandness.

Difficulty of Modifying the models, performance/freamerate issues, and mode filesize issues: The Reforged models are created in an overcomplicated way in a literal sense when we’re talking about modeling, they also have far too much polygons and rather messy textures when you export and look at them as a standalone.

If you look at textures of Reforged models compared to Classic ones of the original game or those made by the community you will see a difference, the Reforged ones are vague and messy and unrecorgnizeable with no shading and no handpainted details.

While the Classic ones you can make out where each part goes where and there is proper shines, shading and handpainted details, details that do not rely on the games lightning engine.

Because of this change in creation and reliance on the lightning engine this way for an RTS game and providing such poor format structure for modelmakers to work with, creating models for the game is far from being a casual hobby that can actually pay off and more like being a hardcore professional model maker.

When Blizzard preach for making Warcraft 3 more accessible and user friendly then spend the entire projects goal creating a less userfriendly and accessible format for how the content of the game will be produced by the community, you know they are false advertisers.

And not only that, this also means the over reliance dampens framerate and performance. this is not an issue to be simply excused away by magically demanding more optimization, there is a healthy balance between models that work for a game they are made for and optimization, some people claim it needs more optimization because they are unwilling to give up any ground or agree on any valid compromise that the models also play a part in many of the issues that exists with this game.

This especially tragically affected one final aspect of the custom games community, the map makers, and one of Warcraft 3’s greatest features. that it was also a game where you can play maps not mods.

What’s the distinction here ? mods are something that modifies the entire game so that whatever changes that are inserted impacts the whole game. Maps for Warcraft 3 are something that do not change anything of the base game, they only provide a similar or extremely different experience compared to the base game in a perfectly closed off bubble. one of the benefits of this was ofc the size of the maps.

Take my map for example, multiplayer RTS map its 19MB at the time of writing. what would happen if i wanted to port my map over to Reforged ? each Reforged model is 3-10MB or sometimes more, we’ll take an average of 7.

I have 24 heros in my map, all custom. unique enough to require a new model to be ported over. heck, thanks to the unfaithful models of Reforged my work kind of suffers.

They added 10 new paladins, none of them look like the original Paladin. and no Uther is not a default Paladin. he has gold ornate armor. so … i have to find a Paladin that looks somewhat like uther but has more humble armor and no golden bits. this is perhaps the second critique i can give to the subjective “artstyle” topic of Reforged, they changed so many models just for the sake of changing that people have been left with no alternatives to upgrade their maps from SD to HD which actively disencourages them anyway, many maps were made with distinct models taken into consideration if the majority of that suddenly changes for no reason then many maps will look out of place in HD. and they already do.

Back to topic, lets take an average of 7MB for each Reforged model lets say, 24 hero models of Reforged now, imported in the map. that’s a map size of 175 MB. max map size limit is 256 btw. (rumored to be 512mb too) now … those 24 imported custom “Reforged” models are only for heros. what about the rest? the army units, the different buildings, buildings which have absurd filesizes of 10-20mb. for different factions. next thing you know making 1 custom faction is going to be a heafty mod of over 1.X GB instead of something more digestible.

This move by Blizzard makes sure that the magic of Warcraft 3’s “MAPS” die, next time someone wants to make a great big multiplayer map they are forcing people to potentially create a map of up to 1GB in size and the game since its core engine is not remade and instead upgraded to preserve things such as the old world editor being a thousand times more userfriendly then starcraft 2’s galaxy editor, can not really handle such bizzare filesizes in a multiplayer environment, the result is going to be a laggy slide show.

Before, such great ambitious projects were tops 200MB in size, if they were singleplayer maps, multiplayer ones were far more aimed to be around 8-100 mb in size. now, with Reforged, and its decision of such heafty models with no consideration of its impact over the custom community, you’d be lucky to catch any ambitious projects of Reforged HD that are sub 700+mb in filesize.

The evolving dream of Warcraft 3 was that, in its original size of 1.5 GB with a little help from maps and community made content maybe increasing the games size to 5GB you would have the adventures and experiences of a lifetime.

With reforged, 26 GB may not seem much at first but with bigger map file sizes now the games general size could grow far, far larger, making it uncomfortable for people to fill in so much of a driver on their PC dedicated to 1 game only.

EDITED SECTION ADDED: [ I realized i might have falsely implied that Reforged HD maps can not be below 700+ mb of size, and that is not the case if people are limiting themselves to the existing models of Reforged, but the idea here is that “Blizzard” can never truly cover for all of the imagination that content creators may hold and eventually many, if they so choose to create maps using the HD mode, will need to import in heafty models and that’s where the impact is, very damaging. which is one of the areas Blizzard also miscalculated by trying to think they can actually create enough models to compensate for the content creators own imagination, which is why they made 2 times as more models as the original game had. instead of wisely creating a “platform” where content creators would actually have an easier time to produce what they want, and it would come with faster speed, not slower, since they already betrayed their promises of giving the community “tools” like they claimed at the Blizzcon stage. it only rubs more salt on the open wounds of their broken lies.]

Which leads me to the last point of idea on the whole subjectivity topic of the artstyle.

Look, The idea of all of these complication togather with the basic realization that this is an RTS game, it is “functionally” more beneficial to create models for this game that look more simple, are distinct by design not overt details and take into consideration how are they going to be used and handled by an old community that has stood the test of time and smiled in the face of death when Blizzard treated this legendary game as abandonware for 10+ years before coming back and spitting on it.

There is a distinct lack of care for how all of these would play out and how would all the puzzles fit togather, something i should have never expected modern Blizzard to realize.

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What’s the “misinformation” here?

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I guess the misinformation is art ever being considered as ‘objectionally good’.

All art is subjective. Period.

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Too many people think Reforged models were actually beneficial and a good part of the overhauling project over War3. as i said at the start of my post, this is simply misinformation.

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That’s what thought.

Pretty audacious of you to claim that opinion is misinformation. You don’t seem to know what an opinion is.

Following your lead, your opinion that the Reforged models were not beneficial is also misinformation.

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So you claim opinions can not be opinions, but also classed as misinformation at the same time.

Hey, the earth is flat, just my opinion.
And i’m not going to respond to you hence forth, i mean no disrespect however.

Also i pointed out a challenge on how the Reforged models were objectively more harmful then beneficial to the game. but since you seem to be more interested in “countering” me with questioning my use of terminology i’m going to stop here, on the other hand atleast i’m glad i can use this posts content elsewhere since its basically now archived.

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Interesting. Someone comes along and rebuts you and your response is dismiss them?

And terminology is everything, seems you don’t realize that as well.

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Also i pointed out a challenge on how the Reforged models were objectively more harmful then beneficial to the game.

No, you actually mean subjectively harmful.

You can’t really label this as objectively harmful without actual evidence behind the claim, and frankly none exists other than anecdotal evidence and hefty dose of confirmation bias involved.

The new models certainly make it difficult to play in competitive, but competitive isn’t the only way to play Reforged. Just as a counter-argument, Reforged’s models actually work very well in custom games and in the campaign if using mods like Quenching mod. Custom maps/campaigns are also getting quite a bit of attention, like our own Chronicles of the Second War, and our project is centered around the use of Reforged models and style.

If it were such an objective problem all around, then surely Quenching would still look terrible because it’s using the same models in the game, right? And for our own mod, we’ve kitbashed most of the new models out of what’s already in Reforged. Now I can speak out on some of the laziness involved with some of the models which may have incomplete animations or were shoddily built, but if we’re talking about the look and style of the models, then I can’t say there’s anything objectionally harmful about the models themselves. They work very well for custom maps.

If it were an objectively harmful thing, then we have to be talking about Warcraft 3 Reforged as a whole and not just talk about multiplayer where I think your criticism is focused on. Which is a bit of a weird topic to complain about anyways, considering graphical fidelity is still subjective. Look at Starcraft Remastered’s excellent translation of the graphics, then you look at the facts and most Brood War competitive players are still using the old graphics. Sometimes it’s not about the models or graphics themselves. Starcraft 2 has much more War3-inspired upressed models, and you can see them yourselves in fan maps and mods. They look really good. But that didn’t stop people from pushing it even further, and we had mods like Armies of Azeroth which ended up remaking those units and heroes anyways to suit what they felt was more graphically fitting to WC3.

In the end, it’s all subjective, and there isn’t really a way to completely replace the old graphics. It’s all a matter of whether you accept them or not. Even a general concensus doesn’t make the situation any more objective; it’s still a completely subjective situation.

I think what you need to do is reframe the subject to being your opinion on the matter, because honestly you don’t speak out for anyone else to be able to claim anything as being objectively good or bad. We all speak for ourselves and no one else’s behalf, and that’s how the discussion should remain.

it’s amazing that you write so much.
And don’t take the time to realize that one of the main problems with the models is that they are not finished … which is blizzar’s curpa and not Lemon’s.

There is no Paladin model paladin … no problem because Uther should be a playable model. Remember?

They don’t fit in with the environment? because they did not make the models of the whole.

Ah, so you forcefully interpret what i mean instead of what i actually mean.

Well i didn’t label the title as such, however i gave plenty of evidence of how these decisions objectively harmful then beneficial, you seem to be however countering me by just saying: well, actually no cuz subjectivity.

The new models should be so great its a visual advantage not a disadvantage that is simply excused away by claiming the majority of the games playerbase (aka melee players and by extension competitive players) should simply be disregarded because there exists other ways to play the game, and this is coming from primarily a customgame player.

In my own post i specifically talked about what was delivered to us by Blizzard, and no other extensions or addons, it is infact, their duty to make sure the game looks good, and functions properly as an RTS game while doing so, it is not the duty of modmakers, i won’t comment on whether or not i think Quenching mod actually looks better or not because i’m not here to talk about “my opinion” like you are. As much as i heard from others the affection towards it is mixed at best.

Chronicles of the Second War is an amazing project might i add, sitting right at 785 mb for a custom campaign that so far only has a few missions, i mean i don’t really have anything against it but if you openly choose to dismiss the problems of framerate, size and my arguments regarding what Warcraft 3 evolved to be understood as at the time of Blizzards absence i can’t see the mentioning of this as nothing but a bias plugin point that doesn’t actually address the problem. i mean if you don’t simply care if the game can’t keep above 30 frames with 1050TI cards in a fight and simply write it as subjective then, i don’t know how else to reason with you regarding this.

A wild mishmash of statements regarding 3rd paragraph from the bottom:

Ah yes its just a bit of a weird topic for me to complain on, multiplayer, sigh, not like it has the majority of the playerbase by hard numbers. i’m so weird i should talk about your little niche box. well sadly i talk about the game as a whole, i’m sorry if my original post sounded multiplayer focused ? i mean i really tried to not make it out to be so.

The fact that competitive players choose to play on more basic visuals for advantage is a tired counter argument to excuse away that there should be any effort to actually making readability a valid critique.

Well here is where i will slide in few of my opinions that i did not state in my original post that you seem to be so keen on splashing subjectivity to “debunk” it, because:
1 - By reading it you never actually knew what was my personal bias regarding the visuals because i never stated them.
2 - Even though this post is written by me and can be seen as my opinion and the thread title is not stating any bias until you actually read it, you still seem to think its “required” for me to flash in the IMO IMO IMO card to not hurt your feelings.

But yes, Starcraft 1 Remastereds visual overhaul in my opinion was … by the books ? i mean i am a bit more ambitious personally, but it seems like a safe no risk plan to me. which is better then an over ambitious risky plan likely to fail and cause to much division and fracture.

Starcraft 2’s models and the HD W3 models Blizzard released for it alongside Armies of Azeroth models were in my opinion the best choice for a remasterin project over Warcraft 3. they followed a simple and faithful design and did not focus on visual clutter and all the other criticism i point out in my original post.

In the end its all subjective, yes ? what exactly is subjective ? the objective points i state in my original post ? i mean you mightaswell reform this paragraph as:
“I don’t really care if its objective or not (The argument that Reforged models are not fit for the game that they are put in given the context and the situation of the game) because i’m to enshrined in my bias and i’m just here to remind you people can dismiss your arguments by sheer will of bias alone” in that case, thank you for reminding me. i tried really hard to set aside my own stubbornness regarding the critique of the “artstyle” of the game because it ultimately leads nowhere because of its heavy roots in subjectivity, and i still stand by it, the Reforged models “art” can look exactly as they do right now if only the have their objective problems removed, despite the fact i would “personally” not like them because of my bias, i would have preferred it instead of what we got.

And again, i speak for whomever agrees with me, there are audiences that agree with my points and there are those who don’t i expect you to have the ability to simply understand that without me putting down giant red flags of IMO post signs and treat everyone including myself with kid gloves.

The models are finished, and i specifically stated Blizzard “directed” lemonsky, i never intended to imply it was LemonSky’s fault.

You can assume the models are not finished if we are to disregard the Reforged models as invalid assets for the game, but that is not possible, hence the models are finished. and this was how they intended it to be. and it was planned a long time ago and set in stone most likely before even the Reforged announcement because its not safe to assume all of this was done in 1 year.

Uthers model not being playable is only 50% true since through custom games it can be easily accessed, in official melee however not. and remember i mainly pointed out what i did about Uther because the Classic Games regular Paladin Model and Uther are infact 2 different models while still being similar, which was a great bridging point to state that many of the previous existing Classic Models recreated in Reforged are so astronomically different that it actively disencourages people from being convinced to use the new graphics in the first place.

You think i’m going to opt and recreate my map just so i could transition everything exactly as i originally intended for Reforged ? that would atleast throw my own project back 4 years. and i, am not insane. nor a sadist.

Sorry stormknight, but all opinion is subjective.

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the models are well done, but they lack polish for their purpose. color tuning is off (its off for everything, in fact), the artstyle shifted from forced cartoony high contrast diffuse lit textures to semi dynamic light with a more realistic styling and less definition.

the models, as they are, could be easily tweaked by some texture touchups and color corrections as well as some work put into the shader maps and shader setup.

only very few models are really off like the crypt fiend or the buzzcut paladin model.

what really makes matters worse is the badly done unit scaling for some units - some are still off by a good margin.

the changed lighting in the game also contributes to it. nighttime often is too dark. it should be mostly done via light temperature and not so much actual brightness - or darkness for that matter.

i agree on the team color patches - they are sometimes not well placed or sized, but that doesnt make the model bad. all you need to do is increase the area, armor patch or whatever for team color, you dont have to throw away the whole 3D mesh + texture to do that.

This is simply untrue.

You think that the majority of Warcraft 3 owners and players are competitive melee players. Historically, untrue. Majority of people who bought RTS games was not competitive players at all. Warcraft 3 itself was not only popularized because of its competitive multiplayer, but also because of custom games. On top of this, a majority of players treated WC3 as a singleplayer experience, and they bought the game to play the campaign and be done with it back in the day. How do we know? Sales numbers compared to players online as well as developers at other companies having explained this situation with their own RTS games. I had this revelation when talking to the developers of Dawn of War back when I was in the modding scene, and it really opened my eyes to what I thought was the ‘majority’ gamer. Fact is, even though these companies spend like 90% of their effort maintaining balance and supporting the competitive scene, the majority of their sales goes to people who treat these games like any average 10-hour console game.

Competitive players are what we associate with being the majority because they are the ones with the greatest online presence and representation in the communities. Yet the data is simply not true to say they are the majority; unfortunately they are not.

Same could be said about Raiding and WoW. Everyone always thought raiders were the majority of players back in the day, but that couldn’t be further than the truth. Only a tiny minority of players ever really raided. Today, those numbers are much higher because raiding is much more accessible than before, but there is a VAST number of players who even now treat WoW as a singleplayer experience and only care to buy the expansions, play the leveling experience/patch content, and leave it at that. Can’t say whether if that is true or not today, since we don’t have much data to go on, but it was certainly the case for many years of WoW’s existence.

So why don’t we know more about this casual majority? They have next-to-zero interest in having their presence known online. This demographic hardly represents itself in the ‘community’.

As for Reforged, consider that the entire focus of this game was from the very start aimed at two audiences - The WoW players who had never experienced WC3 before, and to Chinese players, the majority of which played Custom maps and actively bought and sold maps through microtransactions. These were two biggest demographics that Reforged would have been aimed at.

What of competitive players? Well seems obviously they were being considered, but the game’s graphics weren’t exactly designed to appeal directly to them. You were able to touch on many of these points, such as unnecessary details, readability and perfomance. I’ll admit this is purely anecdotal, but I would consider a competitive-friendly HD Warcraft 3 would need to keep unit silhouettes and team color the same, while maintaining a fairly flat lighting system that simply improves with updated shaders where it is warranted. Have it look like DOTA 2 or HOTS more or less. Yet we look at Reforged today, and nothing in the game looks quite like Warcraft 3 as we know it. Everything looks like a mix of WoW and an Asian Mobile game. And who exactly would this appeal to? (I’m extrapolating here) The WoW and Asia demographics, which have greatest potential for new sales. We could assume that they were banking on veteran fans returning to buy Reforged regardless of the final product, as long as it was all playable.

i mean i don’t really have anything against it but if you openly choose to dismiss the problems of framerate, size and my arguments regarding what Warcraft 3

Because your title is ‘regarding the Reforged models’ and that’s what I’m addressing.

I just consider everything else you mentioned to be a tangential topic, to be honest. If you wanted to talk about graphics overall, then perhaps the topic should be rephrased, otherwise I don’t know quite what to say in regards to how the models actually impact performance issues.

We don’t really know if those issues stem from the models themselves, do we? Perhaps it’s an issue with the rendering engine that Blizzard has chosen. I’ve seen people rip the models into Unreal, and you know what? No frame rate issues. No lighting issues.

It’s difficult to address when you’re applying the problem to Lemonsky’s models when in reality it may be Blizzard’s renderer itself. I can say I’ve imported very optimized models into Reforged, and the framerate is not great any way you cut it. The renderer is not something Lemonsky made, it’s something Blizzard internally works on. In short, it has nothing to do with models, and nothing with what I’m addressing above.

In the end its all subjective, yes ? what exactly is subjective ? the objective points i state in my original post ?

What is subjective is what you’ve associated as being the root of the problems that exist in Reforged. While those problems do exist, my point is you may not be entirely correct in addressing where they actually come from. Part of this is lack of data (such as assuming majority of War3 Reforged owners are Competitive players. Not entirely true) or that the frame rate issues are due to the heavy models (no issue in other renderers such as Unreal).

Now, we could speculate that Blizzard may have known the limits of their engine and make an assumption that it’s Lemonsky’s fault for making such high-and-demanding models that end up slowing down framerates. Yet who’s fault is it really if they were the ones being given direction? On top of this, through what we’ve learned through the modding scene, some of these issues could be connected to the fact that the LOD models do not seem to be used or recognized by Reforged. From what we know (which is still very limited), each model contains LOD model data (which inflates the model size 2-4x) but they don’t seem to actually be used in the game at all; only the highest level of model is used. This could be one reason why the performance of the game is so terribly unoptimized, because (AFAIK) the system simply doesn’t work as intended. No lower detail models when scrolling out means the engine is rendering everything at highest level of detail, needlessly.

As for who and what to blame this on, it’s all interconnected. A bad apple spoiled the bunch. The problem is, we don’t really know who or what is truly to blame for being the bad apple, and it could have been that the whole bunch was rotten from the start. It’s sort of subjective, really, since everyone is at fault yet no one is truly completely responsible. You have Lemonsky who simply had orders to make the models, the Developers who had no time to properly integrate the LOD system, the Execs who mandated it all done in a year, or hell even the CMs for not telling people that this was going to be a problem. It’s a little bit of everything and everyone, and not just one thing making the performance issues terrible. It all comes down to where you stand and what you see if you are judging this mess and applying someone as the scapegoat for this mess.

What you’ve displayed here is your subjective analysis of the situation. Simple as that. Again, I’m not saying there is anything wrong with your analysis, but I don’t think you can consider it an objective analysis considering you have inserted a hefty dose of subjective bias in the analysis itself, without regarding the actual data out there that, frankly, says otherwise.

And as a side note, to address your assertion that anyone who thinks the models are ‘objectionally’ good are spreading misinformation - there is no such thing as ‘objectionally good’ except how you have personally regarded that information, and you disagreeing with it doesn’t make it misinformation but simply a difference in opinion. This is why my first post in this thread fully addressed your rant. The first problem was assuming that anything related to models/graphics/art being good or bad was going to be in any way be an objective problem with objective standards that everyone will treat as fact. That’s just not how it works. Every analysis is privvy to bias and subjectivity, that’s simply the reality we deal with. No one here is so all-seeing all-knowing to properly judge any of these criteria as being objectively-anything. We can only share our opinions on the matter.

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Models are not ending.
We should have 10 models of each hero as advertised. We should be able to choose which Hero model to choose.
What I emphasize then in your custom games you should be able to choose Uther.

And again the problem is not the model. Because you think there are mods that make it look much better using the same Models.
Lemon Sky made the models and Blizzard didn’t make the Game for those models to run.

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In the good old days of Dota each graphical effect that was slightly covering units or creating a mess was considered bad and removed from the game. Spells were kept simple on purpose. People wanted transparency and precision. Then Dota 2 came with a seizure for each ability with lightnings, particles, flashes and so on. So, the competitive scene is not what you should cater to in this case. Up to this day there is not a single Dota player using Reforged graphic to address the needs of kids that like to be stunned every 5 seconds to buy some skins or tickets.
Besides that, there are graphic lags on AOE spells that weren’t there before, so, something has been also messed up with the renderer…
So, I think, people who makes stuff like campaigns or who enjoy them could have a word on saying if the models are good or not. For me, I presume they are ok, even if I have never had the chance to try them.
For competitive “ladder” (what a joke^^) or custom games, they are totally useless…

if I may add: still no model for generic male Death Knight and Demon Hunter

also I really hate that the characters have no pseudo-nude frames like if you remove the shirt/gloves/boots/helmet, it’s just an empty void

From an engineer’s standpoint, the models are objectively bad. But engineering relies on measurable variables and not something subjective like “looks good” or “looks bad.”

One easy variable that I can point to is one of the main reasons why the models are not desirable for competitive players: visual clarity.

“BUT YOU CAN’T MEASURE THAT D D!” Yes, you can. You can simply have a sample of participants and document how fast each one tells you they can count the number of models of different unit types, etc. Or have a time test and see how long each participant takes to locate a specific unit (maybe you remember a “where’s the scv” critque video on YouTube about SC2 back in the day).

Anyway, point is, Blizzard has become too much about art and too little about engineering with their games. Art needs engineering too if you want the best outcomes for your projects.

And yes, this goes for custom games and campaigns too. Visual clarity carries over to all game variants.

Nope, the art is objectively bad. But hey, at least it’s pretty…sometimes…to some people…because you know things like pretty or not are somewhat subjective unlike the ability to recognize objects…which can be measured…unlike “prettiness.” I suppose you could measure how many people think it’s pretty, but not the magnitude of the prettiness?

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From an engineer’s standpoint, the models are objectively bad. But engineering relies on measurable variables and not something subjective like “looks good” or “looks bad.”

These 3D models aren’t created by Engineers. It has nothing to do with Engineering at all. Art is not subject to variables of functionality the same way you can talk about code or systems.

To say the models are objectively bad from an engineer’s standpoint is… absolutely meaningless. It’s like if I said from an engineer’s standpoint your comment is objectively bad. It doesn’t actually mean anything because none of these things were built by or subject to engineer standards. Did you engineer your comments, and can they be subject to Engineer standards of functionality?

You’re talking nonsense right now.

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Good art is connected to engineering when it’s in a video game and you want it to be good. Case and point: LoL. A lot of engineering goes into their art especially visual clarity.

I’m a professional 3D modeller. You’re talking nonsense.

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