Huh? Yes, I’m going to advocate for the game officially having features it’s supposed to have. That’s the whole reason these complaint threads exist? Why would I advocate for mods over an official solution? “It won’t be as good” isn’t an argument. If they do put it out and it still sucks to where it doesn’t function, I might turn to W3C then. But ultimately, the community shouldn’t have to fix the game, Blizzard should do that.
I simply would rather have them come back and finish what they started than turn to modders to fix a broken game. It has nothing to do with getting beaten by competitive players whatsoever. I was simply stating a fact that W3C users are, by and large, not casual/novice players. There is a night and day difference between the people playing on battle.net and the people playing via W3C’s system.
It’s a plain and obvious division of the community that’s bad in the long term, as anyone foolish enough to buy War3 now is going to expect the game to just work, and they’re either going to be happy with it or not. They aren’t likely to even know W3C exists, as it has both been made and patronized by the more advanced players as a rule. This is a problem W3C doesn’t have a solution for. It will be difficult to convince new/lower skilled players to use their third party service.
This isn’t really accurate. Particularly with Samsung drives, I can’t speak for others, but these have a feature called “over provisioning” which creates a reserved area on the drive for this purpose to improve performance, so you can generally use most of the remaining capacity without adversely affecting performance.
Also, it’s not even an SSD exclusive problem, any traditional hard disk becomes fragmented more easly when less space is available as files are created and deleted, and is why we have software to defragment them as that hinders performance.
You know, you really shouldn’t make assumptions about people. I work in a grocery store and pretty much just get by. SSDs are dirt cheap these days (well, recent events have affected that somewhat, but still, they’re far cheaper than they were when they were a new thing). I have three of them in my system. 30GB is nothing. Mountains out of molehills.
I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about with this “mental gymnastics.” I pointed out the hypocrisy in complaining that art assets are bloatware while saying the tool they claim they have no intention of using isn’t.
Again, I do agree that it isn’t a bad idea to make it an option to install, but yet again, this is a mountains-out-of-molehills issue. It is a really, really minor thing that I really just don’t understand people complaining about over the many much bigger issues they could complain about.
The core of my counter argument to you regarding the ladder stuff is centered around this:
1 - If Blizzard rather spent time, effort and resources to replace something we already have, and they do a worse job at it, and inevitably miss manage and stop moderating it after months turn into years and the games support is cut out completely, W3C is still going to be there. Blizzard isn’t.
2 - Risks, you would rather have them come back and do all the yin and yang, great, but you preferring them to come back doesn’t mean they will, and it doesn’t mean after they put in a half baked sloppy effort that will stick around to fix, set effort. its like making a wish to the fairy’s in the forest. they dont’ exist. hence, your “wish” that Blizzard would do a proper job at fixing or adding these features back is just a wish. it has nothing to do with reality.
3 - If they come in, put whatever time that their peers legally allow/pay them and “fix” ladder, and then they ran out of time to fix the mountains of smaller bugs, and other major features and tweaks. and in the end, fail to properly fix ladder in the first place, and fail to properly moderate it, are you going to take responsibility for your arrogant request ? probably not.
So you would rather Bet/Risk them doing that, while we have a working alternative, and you don’t really care if they don’t do it properly or not, in no way shape or form you stating “i would rather have them do xyz in xyz quality and xyz order” is a realistic take on Blizzard not giving a flying !@#$ about what you rather have them to do, and just doing whatever the hell they please and leaving.
Now, how does my request conflict with this, i already take into consideration that all of the risks and gambles we have to do, my request is a gamble like yours, but its a safer gamble, because, realistically we know they will never do a 180 to fix and finish what they started, its just not going to happen.
So, within a more realistic PoV, would you gamble on them adding back a feature that there is 50/50 chance that it will not be actively maintained and moderated that we already have a functioning alternative to, or would you bet on them working to add or fix a broken part of the game that players and talented modders have 0 control and authority over.
Think about it, its easy to say “yeah they should fix everything” okay, did you know that the classic models and its visuals are not fixed by 100% still, and that, all of the classic model textures in Reforged were converted from Blp image format to DDS directly and shoved into the game ?
Blp is a lossy image format, so is DDS, the proper way for Blizzard to do this would be to use the original loseless image format of TGA and do a one time conversion from that to DDS. this isn’t some obscure thing, its basically an abject failure to convert files properly.
It means the pre Reforged release game on lower patches, classic graphics and models there at their highest quality have a higher quality then the same models and visuals in Reforged, because they were done a one time converstion from TGA to Blp, loseless to lossy.
Does “Everything” include literally redoing all of the classic assets how they should objectively be done ? doing everything is not an option, and we’re basically ata stage where we have to beg Blizzard to atleast fix things we have 0 control over and that is where i stand. i wish they trash this project in the bin and go in hiding until they re-do the entire remaster properly and with a better direction, but it aint gonna happen.
Exactly… or at least Blizzard should not destroy what community had created.
Ok, let me set it to your point of view.
You work in a grocery store. You sell food.
There is an old man coming to your shop, he buys a can of beans everyday. He goes home, he eat the beans, he is happy. You are the only one selling those beans.
One day he comes to your shop, he asks you for the beans and you give him a whole pack of half opened, out of date, huge metal package of metal cans of smelly beans with a picture that doesn’t reflect at all the content. The price is also 10 times higher and when if asks “sorry what’s that???” you reply “sorry if you are not getting the beans you expected”.
You tell him, well you can still have your beans at the old price as long as you don’t eat the other ones.
He asks: can I just have the can of the old ones???
You say: no, without even care to explain why.
Now, besides all the problems, let’s just focus on one, the huge metal can.
How is he going to carry it home?
And you say: well, delivery services are efficient enough today, just get one. The old man says “fair enough” and uses the delivery service.
When at home, there is a big problem… where is he going to store the package?
It almost takes a whole room of his house.
He puts the package in one room and opens just the can he used to eat.
The can also requires a huge effort to open…
He eats the beans discarding the rotten ones.
The taste is bad also because the scrap metal released rust into the soup.
Now, the old man used to enjoy making new dishes with the beans. He could still do that, even blindly cooking the other beans of the package while still locked in the can, but he cannot see what he is doing! (that is your comment on “you can still make maps tested by others who own reforged”. That is a total nonsense, stop comparing the world editor to the waste of space).
Anyway, the old man is stuck at home with this huge useless package of beans of which he can only eat one can that you sold him.
Now there is a guy passing by, he sees the old man struggling and yelling at the huge package claiming it is a waste of space and he says:
“houses are cheap nowadays! stop complaining! buy a new one!”
That was a lot of words to make a rather poor analogy of the situation. The solution to your scenario would be a very different one from the lack of disk space scenario.
Not the least of the problems with it is a house costs a lot more than an SSD (not to mention home prices, particularly in more rural areas because of the pandemic, have skyrocketed)
Physical size is quite a different thing from data size, and those cans of beans can still be discarded or used individually, so even though you may have more than you need or know what to do with, it isn’t anything like the disk space issue at all.
You can get a useable SSD for the same money you might have paid for the “Spoils of War” edition of War3.
I maintain that the data size of t he game for non-reforged players is an extremely minor issue at worst and a non-issue at best, because 30GB for a game just isn’t really all that big anymore unless you’re still playing the game on a PC from a over a decade ago. Then I suppose it would be a more noticeable problem, but my reaction would still be the same: Start saving for an upgrade, because games are only going to get bigger from here.
Insulting other users does not enhance your argument. I understand it perfectly. You made a bad analogy. If you really feel I’m misunderstanding something, then you did not word it well at all.
Because you clearly need one if you think 30GB is a lot of space. And who doesn’t want more space anyway? that’s like me asking why should I buy [insert beneficial thing]? Because it’s beneficial? Because I would find it useful, not just for my present situation but in the future?
you didn’t get a word of what I have said, but whatever, I did my best.
Your best clearly wasn’t good enough. Thanks for conceding defeat.
All I see in your post are a bunch of insults. You aren’t making a sound argument. Please do provide me one if you can and I’d be happy to listen But whatever message you wanted to convey, I could not find it in your argument. If you think someone doesn’t understand something, explain it better.
But I don’t think that’s the problem. I understood your original point, and I disagree with it. Your analogy that does not really compare to the original situation does not enhance your argument and therefore, I remain unconvinced. Whose fault is that? Certainly not mine.
I’m not a rich person and I can afford an SSD. Becuase they’re cheap. Data storage is incredibly cheap these days. You can’t convince me that the size of the game is some terrible, insurmountable burden. that isn’t easily resolved with little effort or cost in the event that it is actually a problem.
Your teachers must have been the happiest persons in the world^^
Why don’t you buy a bigger house? It has more space anyway! It’s beneficial! Oh sorry, forgot you cannot understand analogies…
If I wanted to insult I’d say: sure, you are right, it is better for you to buy a new hard disk to have more space for reforged. That would have made you even poorer.
You have been defeated by yourself, that’s the problem.
That was my best explanation, according to your field of interest, since you said you work in a grocery. The analogy is correct. Your point of view is that buying a bigger house to store useless stuff is the right choice because buying a bigger house is beneficial anyway. Who doesn’t want a bigger house anyway?
The correct consequence of this is that according to you logic, you will buy a SSD that has double space and the next day some company will rightfully sell you a game that will occupy double space with assets that you cannot use.
At that point you will logically buy another one that has 4 times the space, and so on.
I don’t work in a grocery, but that example should make you think.
Also, saying that for you the least of the problems is not a problem doesn’t make the problem disappear.
There are people with a gtx2060+ for which the menu does not lag at all, but don’t try to convince you that buy a better card is the right choice for running reforged just because having a better graphic card id “beneficial”.
There are people living close to one of their servers that have better and stable connection, but don’t try to convince you that moving to live somewhere else is the right choice, because moving for example from australia to china is beneficial (no, offence, two random countries where connection is different.)
If you still can’t get that the problem is not a game of 30GB, but 30GB of wasted space you maybe deserve to waste money next year to buy a SSD of 2TB and waste 60GB of the next bloatware game, but please understand, that you should not try to insist to convince people that this is the correct way of doing things. The real offense here is that you think that they may be that stupid.
Try to think: the fact I bought objects that I didn’t need made me a less rich person.
See if you get some sparkle out of it…
Anyway, if you really want to complete your argument say:
“It is my money, I decide how to spend it.”
People usually move on at that point.
Sure sounds like you need them to me. If a 30GB game is too big, clearly you don’t have enough storage space in general, as most poopular games today are larger than that.
“It is my money, I decide how to spend it.”
I never suggested otherwise.
I understand analogies perfectly fine. You’re just not making very good ones.
If you want to make a good analogy, you need to compare something similar in scope. A house is nothing like an SSD- it’s a lifelong investment whereas an SSD, a part for your PC, whether you want to call it expensive or not, fits well within a single paycheck even on a low wage job (at least, in Europe and North America). I have never bought a house. But I can certainly buy PC parts.
You need data storage space to play any game. While it’s fine to say you don’t want to buy storage space now, eventually you will need it, even if not for this game. So if it’s a problem for you now, why not do it? Why is the burden on Blizzard to make the game’s data size smaller for a few people who can’t or don’t want to upgrade their PCs?
For your bad analogy, even if you fill up a whole house with stuff, there are other options besides buying a bigger one- self-storage facilities are a massive industry for this very reason. Making your example even less comparable to the situation at hand.
This clearly means you lack the ability of understanding analogies^^
You also don’t understand the difference between space that is USED to run a program versus space that is OCCUPIED by files you don’t use.
I give up^^
You win!
The sad thing is that you are criticizing Blizzard for other aspects of Reforged (which you are right) when some other genius could easily put the blame on you saying for example that games don’t need ladders anymore because you can do the ladder yourself!^^
Funny guy^^
Hopefully you don’t work in the optimization field…
The reality is a follows: WC3:R takes more than 10x more space on your drive than the classic client and you get NOTHING in return, unless you use the new graphics, which practically nobody does. The new menu works like crap on laptops and there are many new little quality issues. WC3:R is a DOWNGRADE of the classic client. There is currently NOTHING which would persuade people to choose this new client over the old one. Reforged client is used instead of the classic client ONLY because it’s FORCED on everybody.
I told him earlier that this is more about how the game does not justify the size it consumes, War3 whether he likes to admit it or not is home to a more older audience.
Also my Sc2 example of how its WE can be installed later even though it probably doesn’t require so because its like 500MB just tells how much they respect your space. its rare for games to do this, and why i mention Sc2 is mostly to refer to the fact that the infustructure for Blizzard to do such a thing exists and it is very easily doable.
He downplays the size issue too much, and i don’t intend to overblow it, but, the reason i heavily push for this is because it is easy to do for them, it is very easy for them to do this. and alot of people would have a sigh of relief to have such an option.
That is why i urge this compact mode to be added, alongside better connection quality as top priority, because the people who are able to actually fix some of the harder bugs, do not exist anymore, they’re gone, the boogy man ate them.
And the reason that hurts alot is because even if any new team is reassigned to work on the project they don’t have the experience the previous team did, and they have no understanding or knowledge of the feedback and communication that the community put effort into reaching them. when the older team existed.
So instead, doing easier things, far easier things that would be a genuine sigh of relief, for me personally jumps up in priority considering the situation of the game and the likelyhood of possible support, its a perfectly rational request that considers risks.
The older team struggled with releasing patches beforehand too, the base patches of 1.29.0 ~~ 1.30.0 ~~ and 1.31.0 were infamous for being very muddy and messy, it took that, previously more experienced and more funded and more focused team at its peak, that much effort and they still couldn’t fetch enough time to iron out issues.
And you’re asking me to have faith in a new team to release a new patch like 1.33.0 and do a better job and polish/quality control then the now retired team, at LESS funding, LESS support and LESS attention ? no thanks. i vote for fixing or relieving the playerbase of issues … that they can actually pull off without breaking anything. like again, better connection, and a compact mode.
Also on a moral side ToshoDaimos is absolutely right, for example, Age of Empires 2 HD edition is still there, its servers are running, no body touched it when they were providing Age2 Definitive Edition to the audience, they EARNED peoples respect.
Since we can’t ask Blizzard to bring back older clients of the game cuz of how irrational and greedy they are, we can atleast ask them to add a compact mode in respect to the audience they betrayed.
I’m a lower middle class on a 3rd world Southeast Asian country and I’m just lucky and privileged enough my parents bought me a somewhat decent laptop that can spare the said space; but since I have this thing called empathy I would feel for those who don’t have money for extra space and then the 30gb bloatware forced on them
to be fair there’s the Chronicles Of The Second War, the Re-Reforged projects and then The Last Stand, War Quest World, Frostcraft; and I’m somewhat part of the HD modding community so it’s not close to nobody
No, it clearly means you don’t know how to make them.
An analogy is when you compare two unrelated things which may share some attribute in common in order to illustrate a situation to someone. Here’s an unrelated analogy as an example, which is far better than yours:
“Using level 1 EV charging is kind of like trying to fill a swimming pool with a garden hose. Sure, you can do it, but it will take a very long time.”
That’s an analogy. See? I understand analogies. I also can tell the difference between a good one and a bad one. Yours is a bad one, and I explained why multiple times. I’m not going to do it again.
You can be insulting to me all you want, but that doesn’t change the fact that you came up with a bad analogy for the situation, rendering you unable to communicate a problem (that doesn’t really exist) to me. I’m sorry you weren’t able to do that, but that isn’t my problem. I’m a reasonably intelligent person with a college degree and plenty of patience to try to understand another’s point of view. Regrettably, we weren’t able to do that here.
10 times a not very big number still isn’t all that big of a number. This PC which I’m playing on now is several years old at this point, it probably isn’t that far removed from something you might have where you are. I’ve got no issue with the game taking up 30GB of space. I have a bunch of games that take far more than that. The fact that I “get nothing in return” (Which, if I didn’t have reforged, still isn’t true because it exists for the World Editor and I use that) is pretty insignificant because I’m not burdened by it in the first place.
This thread continues to make a really big mountain out of a molehill. An issue that’s really barely even an issue at all is being made out to be a big deal when it really isn’t- especially in comparison to the other more real problems with the game right now.
Self judgement + a piece of paper.
I wouldn’t go around claiming that I had a college degree even if it was my highest education title.
…and… relativity is your friend^^
No one has or has ever said that they got problems with games taking 30GB of space. As long as you can use them… This concept is unknown to you.
We all have. Not a problem.
Name one, so we can all say that it doesn’t exist because:
A: one of us doesn’t have it.
B: one of us can’t understand that is a problem.
C: one of us cannot understand analogies.^^
According to your highly flawed logic this game has no problems at all.
By the time you understand way, they have probably implemented the ladder…
Well, you are prejudging me as being unintelligent by publicly asserting I don’t understand a basic concept, so my only option is to defend myself (or report you for flaming, which I have not done because I would rather resolve these problems amicably if I could). Completing college does require a certain level of educational talent, whether you believe it or not. My level of intelligence is not merely something I’m asserting myself, i’ve been subjected to batteries of tests and such over the years to determine this (and also my position on the Autism spectrum). So, maybe you wouldn’t do it, but you’re attacking me, so I’m standing up for myself.
(And strangely, in your line-by-line dissection of my post, you seem to have ignored the part where I gave an example of a good analogy. Hmmm…)
It’s not unknown to me, I just disagree that it’s a problem. Some game on my hard disk might have gigabytes worth of cut content that they will never use in their data files. Am I supposed to be outraged by this? Clutter in game’s data files is far from rare. Ultimately the real issue is whether or not it actually burdens you. And it’s only burdening you if this problem is forcing you to make decisions about what to keep and what to delete. Which is reasonable, but I don’t think most people with PCs that meet this game’s system requirements are facing that problem all that often. Of course I admit this is only a hypothesis, not a provable fact, but that’s how I feel about it.
Also, you CAN use those files. Your choosing not to doesn’t mean you’re unable to. I like options just as much as the next person, but options take time and work to develop, and there is a thing called “feature creep” where adding more things keeps adding to development time and cost, which both are basically nonexistent at the moment (much to the annoyance of all of us). Adding options to install or not install these files or those files adds complexity to the installation process, and it also means different people’s installs may be different which makes providing support harder (though LOL at blizzard’s support, I suppose). And these are all factors that someone considering implementing the feature you desire would have to consider, asking themselves “is the work required to make this happen worth what we would gain from doing it?” (Also known as a cost-benefit analysis).
The bottom line is my logic is not flawed, I do understand analogies (as i proved in my last post), and your continued statements to the contrary amount to an attacking the person fallacy.
I’m always ready and willing to listen to reasonable, logical arguments. Personal attacks are not reasonable, logical arguments. If you can’t respond to me without insulting my intelligence, repeating the same inaccurate statements disparaging my knowledge of logic and the English language, then please don’t respond.
Finally: If you need me to actually tell you what problems exist with the game that do/should take precedence over this one, it raises the question of whether or not you’ve even played the game since Reforged, but here we go:
Competitive play / ladder /player profiles still nonexistent
Inability to load custom campaigns or custom game saves that existed before the Reforged update
Matching system flaws, including teams of all solo players being matched against full premades in team modes, leading to incredibly unfair team melee matches at times
Clans / community features
All issues that affect how fun to play the game is (reforged or not), and since the point of playing games is having fun, I would weigh all of these issues far higher than the game taking up an undesirable amount of disk space for some number of users. I admit this is just my opinion, but I have a strong suspicion I’m not the only one that would give priority to these issues.
I mean… If they have not bought Reforged (Or refunded it), they literally cannot use those files. And no, I don’t think the World Editor counts in this context.
Other than that, I actually agree with you on the “priority” thing, even though personally I don’t care much for the multiplayer aspect apart from silly custom maps and would rather just play custom campaigns.
Don’t worry, won’t take care, I understand it is useless to go on.
Giving up on you is the best choice, since you consider “attacks” any statements against your flawed logic.
So, without attacking you and embracing your “über alles” point of view:
not needed at all, there is W3C.
that is perfectly normal, it happened with every patch, you knew it if you were playing it before. You would understand that this may happen with any software, but… you know… you would feel attacked if I explain you how it works.
again not needed, there is W3C.
discord/teamspeak/any social network/whatever. You don’t need it.
None of them is a problem.
Anything you say I will consider a personal attack to my intelligence.
Face your logic.
Enjoy.
…or
maybe we could agree that:
that is what caused a massive exodus to w3c. It was a nonsense to release a competitive game without ladder.
for the custom campaign is a missing feature, the custom games sadly there is not much you can do. If you change the engine you got a data mismatch. you can try to load your game and see if it is not affected. Maps and saves should be updated anyway.
that is a mix of bad system / bad choices / lack of time for the algorithm to set / lack of players. The ELO system IS NOT APPLICABLE to random teams. No one cares, this is the result. the RT vs AT is just a bad patch to the lack of players.
that was a killing blow. Not even the chance to create groups and an interface that is one of the worst I’ve ever seen. Add the mismatch between battlenet names and game names, the awkward position of chats, the lack of post game whispers and chats.
The list may go on and on, like for example the impossibility to host game through battlenet and having to rely on their poor quality servers. That for me is a crucial point, but, no less that having a proper menu that does not slow up the entire game or a clean installation that does not take 30GB.
I will skip past the snarky part of the response and respond to the more reasonable response you put in below it.
I agree with the message, but not the “mass exodus to W3C” part. W3C is still a niche product primarily used by melee masters. I can find games (regardless of quality) far more easily on battle.net than on W3C. Only the most serious players are using it. And as I said before, the game should still be finished/fixed by blizzard rather than by a third party mod.
If they can maintain compatibility with custom games (which they do, mostly) they cna maintain compatibility with custom campaigns. The custom campaign feature is little more than a hub that connects a bunch of custom maps together, it shouldn’t be that hard to keep the compatibility.
Not quite sure what you’re trying to say here, I mean I agree with your description of the problem, but that’s entirely addressable if they choose to do so. There are RT/AT combinations that are reasonable: For example, in 4v4 you could have two teams that each have one pair and two solos or a trio and a solo. MAAAYBE a trio and a solo vs two pairs. But there really shouldn’t be a full premade vs a bunch of solo players. I don’t care how long the queue takes, I’d rather have fairer matchups.
Uh… yes. If I understand you correctly.
But like I said, all of these things (and more) are the real problem. People should have wanted War3 Reforged and thus be okay with the larger data files. Instead they got War3 Refunded (in many cases. I still own it and I would certainly be a lot happier if they just delivered the updates they promised ages ago).
The damage is done but I would still rather Blizzard fix their game up than depend on a third party mod. And a fully featured functional game is still far more important to me than the amount of bytes it occupies on my storage device, because if it doesn’t work, they’re all worthless. If it does work, they’re all part off the package.
I agree that an option not to install those files would be a good thing, but that is even less likely to be implemented than any of the other stuff we’re still waiting on. And from ap ure business perspective, it doesn’t make a lot of sense, because their goal is to get you to buy Reforged, and adding features that facilitate not buying reforged don’t make a lot of sense to implement (from that business perspective).
