Give the paladin the ability to heal himself with holy light

PTR Discussion and Bug Report
1

Please add to the paladin the ability to heal himself with “holy light” with a healing efficiency of 50%. So that a paladin could heal his warriors for 200/400/600 health, but only 100/200/300 for himself.
This will give people a lot of things:

  1. Palladin can now often be chosen as the first hero due to greater survivability.
  2. Due to his own greater survivability, he will be near the archmage more often and the archmage will also survive more often.
  3. Paladin will stop dying with half of his unspent mana.
  4. By treating himself with “holy light”, the paladin will no longer need to study “invulnerable shield”, and instead he will always study the aura of protection, which will lead to the fact that the entire stratum with the palladin will become slightly more protected from physical damage.

It’s unfair that the DK has 2 out of 3 self-healing skills and the Paladin has none. It is unfair that the Alchemist, Shadow Hunter, Guardian of the Grove, DK can heal themselves with their skills, but the Paladin cannot. This results in an imbalance for the palladin.

This will slightly increase the palladin’s survivability, but against creatures that can drain mana like the demon hunter and blood mage, he will remain just as weak. If you add this change, then perhaps people will start playing through the first palladin more often, and his entire army with an aura of protection will become more durable. In contrast, it will be possible to slightly reduce the aura of protection in terms of effectiveness, for example from 2/4/6 protection to 1.5/3/4.5, as was the case a few years ago.
You can also increase the paladin’s holy light cost from 65 to 75 mana, and reduce the duration of divine Shield from 15/30/45 seconds to 13/26/39 seconds.

I wrote this in thread 49 suggestions for improving balance

It is not necessary to do so that treatment with “holy light” would give an effect of 50% of the maximum. You can put 40%, or even 35%. The main thing is to make the palladin more durable, so that he doesn’t die with half unspent mana, and he could be chosen as the first hero in tournaments.

The Alliance vs. Undead matchup is the most problematic for the alliance because in tournaments the undead win most of the games against the Alliance.
The paladin hero is to some extent the antipode of the DK, but not as effective because all the paladin’s skills are worse in usefulness than the DK’s skills, and allow the paladin to survive less effectively than the DK’s skills.

If you carefully compare the skills of a DC and a paladin in terms of usefulness, you can see that all the skills of a paladin are worse than those of a DC:

The palladin’s aura only protects against physical damage, but is useless against magical damage. Because of this, the aura is useless against such combinations of heroes as DK + Lich, Seer + Tauren, DH + Varden, and all others who can deal magical damage.
The DK’s aura allows you to restore health, which is more useful than the paladin’s aura because to some extent it compensates not only physical but also magical damage. In addition, the DK’s aura often allows you to escape from danger in time when the DK has little health left. A DK can escape from danger using his aura, but a paladin cannot.
It turns out that the paladin’s aura is less useful than the DK’s aura.

The paladin’s first skill, “holy light”, only allows you to heal your own units and attack undead units, while the DK’s “coil” can heal your own and attack units of all other races. This makes the “coil” more useful than the “holy light”. Holy light costs 10 mana less, but then it would be appropriate to raise the mana cost of “holy light” by 10 mana and make it possible for them to attack units of all other races as a “coil” of DK. Without this equation, “holy light” is worse than “coil”. This allows the DK to kill units and heroes of all other races more efficiently than a paladin.

When the DC has little health, the second skill “death pact” allows you to sacrifice one of your units and remain in battle next to your fighters in the front row, and attack units with physical damage for several minutes in a row while the battle is going on.
The paladin’s “divine shield” skill allows him to remain invulnerable for only 15-30 seconds, after which he cannot take part in the battle because otherwise he will die. From these 15-30 seconds, you need to subtract about 5 seconds that the player spends in order to take the palladin to the back rows in time before the shield ends. Alliance opponents can surround the paladin and wait until the shield ends, and then kill him. Or simply run next to the paladin, waiting for the effect of the “divine shield” to end and kill him. It turns out that the divine shield still helps the paladin to survive worse than the “contract with death” of the DK.

When players play with these heroes, they usually learn the first skill and aura. At the first encounter, the DK and the paladin reduce each other’s health to low, but then the DK can be healed for free with his aura, and the paladin remains with the same low health because his aura does not give him health. Therefore, the paladin dies more often. And for this reason the paladin is worse than the DK.
Therefore, you need to change some of the paladin’s skills so that he can also heal himself, as a DC can do this with two out of three skills.
Without this, the paladin is weaker than the DK, and a worse support hero.

2

So you want to buff s tier support to sssssss+++++++++ tier support? Great idea, ye…

3

What kind of “support” are you talking about?
If we talk about the ability to give a paladin the ability to heal himself with 50% efficiency, then this is not support but equalization of opportunities with other heroes.
I wrote that It’s unfair that the DK has 2 out of 3 self-healing skills and the Paladin has none. It is unfair that the Alchemist, Shadow Hunter, Guardian of the Grove, DK can heal themselves with their skills, but the Paladin cannot.

The ability of a paladin to heal himself will not give him a support level of sssssss++++++++++, but will only equalize the chances in a matchup with other heroes, especially with DK.

4

Dude, i’m the onle who hate hero meta in warcraft 3, but you change make pala a little bit better as first hero but freaking MONSTER as 2 or 3rd hero with am. Making pala’s holy light usable on himself will just make standard hu hero choice am-mk-pala just overpowered. If u want him as first hero - u need to suggest rework, not straight buff to his main ability what already used by him in support role. Just tel me HOW win human with am aura, mk’s hammer plus 3rd pala with divine shield + holy light what he can use on himself plus few mana pots? This is sound super overpowered.
If u ask me - i wish all 4 heroes can be picked as first pick and be useful - but it needs reworks (for blood mage just make cheaper and instant flamestrike).
I see pala as first pick with changes like aura with 1 armor per rank but + 0.5 hp regen per rank, divine shield 5\10\15s instead of 15-30-45 but with second effect like healing pala for 100-200-300 hp, and holy light heal 100-140-175 BUT 1 target 2 targets 3 targets per rank (same with damage but only vs undead and demons).
Something like this will make him viable 1` and second hero, but not make him overpowered in any of his incarnations.

5

No, not a monster, but just a little stronger because now the AM+MK+PALA stratum is inferior in strength to the dk+lich+vampire stratum. This will largely equalize their strength, as it should be.

Making pala’s holy light usable on himself will just make standard hu hero choice am-mk-pala just overpowered.

No. The stratum Pala+Mk+archmage or pala+archmage+MK will be added. This is an increase in the variety of strats and an increase in the variety of strategies in the game.

At the same time, Palladin will not become a monster because his ultimate is countered by DK’s ultimate. When they both begin to reach level 6, the outcome of the battle in some cases will depend on who is the first to resurrect the dead on the battlefield. But a palladin can only resurrect his own, and DK can also resurrect strangers, and this will prevent the palladin from resurrecting his own.

If u want him as first hero - u need to suggest rework, not straight buff to his main ability what already used by him in support role.

What kind of “skill rework” are you proposing?
The palladin’s main problem, why he cannot be chosen as the first hero, is that he is a melee warrior who quickly loses health, and he does not have the ability to quickly heal himself. If the inability to heal oneself is his main drawback, then that is what needs to be corrected.
How do you propose to “rework” his skill so that it closes his main drawback of the inability to heal himself, which leads to the inability to choose him as the first hero?

Just tel me HOW win human with am aura, mk’s hammer plus 3rd pala with divine shield + holy light what he can use on himself plus few mana pots? This is sound super overpowered.

Easily. It is enough to simply prevent him from raising his heroes to such a high level, by imposing, for example, building up towers, or pushing an all-in push on T-2. The third level palladin always appears when approximately 70-80% of the game time has passed.
And even if he appears, this does not negate the fact that his ability to heal himself and his units is destroyed by burning the mana of the demon hunter, blood mage, and spell breaker.

In addition, the economy of the human race is always the most vulnerable to destruction because people cannot protect their workers from physical and magical damage.
Even if the heroes of people become stronger, this does not change the fact that the economy will remain just as vulnerable, and it will be just as easily destroyed by a combination of DK+lich, seer+tauren, or solo Varden heroes.

I see pala as first pick with changes like aura with 1 armor per rank but + 0.5 hp regen per rank

I already suggested this in my topic about changing the paladin

If this is not suitable, then instead of protection from magic, you can add to the aura a bonus to the health regeneration rate like the aura of a death knight, but less than that of a death knight. This, to some extent, will be a counter-measure against the disease of the undead, and human priests will not have to spend mana on treating their allies infected with the disease when mana is low.

6

Yea, am-mk-pala is so weak that human play it 9\10 games AND have 52%wr vs undead…

7

Yea, am-mk-pala is so weak that human play it 9\10 games AND have 52%wr vs undead…

Undead play exactly the same way with dk+lich+vampire in most games.

The hardest thing for people to play against is the undead. People with undead almost always end up with am+mk+paladin versus dk+lich+vampire/dark ranger.
But the undead have an advantage because the dk heals everyone, and he himself is treated with two out of three skills. Therefore, it is very difficult to kill him. But in humans, the palladin cannot heal itself. It turns out that the palladin is the weak link in the human stratum. Killing a paladin in this machap is much easier than killing a dk. And after killing a palladin, human heroes are killed very easily because they have no healing.
Therefore, it is necessary to equalize the self-healing abilities of human heroes of the main “healer” of the undead (dk) with the self-healing abilities of the main “healer” of people (palladin).

8

Dude, you ask to straight buff to meta hero in meta position while hu in this comp is already did perfectly fine vs undead. I’m not ud player, i’m just dont see the reason why am-mk-pala comb needs buff, its already meta and already strong.

9

Where do you get the information that human heroes have a 52% chance of winning against the undead?
Humans have always been weaker than the undead, and in most games I watch, humans lose to the undead.
And in the next patch, necromancers can use their curse against tanks. This means that all tanks will be cursed and will become generally ineffective in terms of destroying the undead base. It will now become impossible to play through tanks against the undead. The developers have actually removed tanks against the undead.
Since they removed the tanks, it means they must strengthen or equalize something as a counterbalance. I proposed to equalize the possibility of self-healing of the main healer of people, the palladin, with the ability of the main healer of the dk. Now a dk has greater self-healing capabilities than a paladin. Therefore, undead heroes are much more difficult to destroy than human heroes. This is an imbalance. Inequality of power and opportunity. Imbalances and inequalities of opportunity need to be corrected.

10

or just 75 mana and 6 sec cd, like coil, but can selftarget. Will be broken, but so cool

11

I also thought that it might be worth somehow changing the paladin’s divine shield to give him the opportunity to somehow heal himself through it.
But this will not work because all the paladin’s mana is spent on treating other warriors and heroes with holy light, and it runs out very quickly. Therefore, if a paladin studies the holy light and changes the divine shield as you suggested, then this will not change anything because he will not have enough mana for the shield.
In the game you either need to change the defense aura, reduce it to 1.5/3/4.5 or 1/2/3 defense and add health regeneration speed.
Or change the holy light by adding the ability to heal yourself. Changing the holy light is preferable because if you change the divine shield, the paladin will not have enough mana for two skills that require mana, and he will not be able to study the aura of protection.

12

straight buff pala’s best support ability without nerfing else will make him broken as supp (and he alkready one of the best supports in the game).

13

automatically it gives DK to heal himself too.

14

But what about the fact that other heroes can heal themselves but the paladin cannot?
The alchemist, shadow hunter, grove guardian, and dk can heal themselves with their healing, but the paladin cannot. Not fair.

This change is dictated primarily by the fact that the human race still loses most games to the undead because in the stratum of undead heroes the dk can heal himself with two out of three skills and can heal his warriors, and the paladin can only heal his warriors, but cannot heal himself . This leads to the palladin becoming the weak link in the stratum of human heroes. It is much easier to kill him than dk because he has nothing to heal himself with, and after the death of the paladin it is easy to kill the rest of the human heroes because there is no one to heal them.
Therefore, this change is dictated by the fact that it would EQUALize the treatment capabilities of the main “healer” of people in self-medication with the main “healer” of the undead.
Without this change, people will still lose most games to the undead.

In the next patch, the necromancer curse will affect tanks, this will lead to the fact that playing through tanks will become ineffective, so people will lose even more games to the undead. In contrast to the fact that the strategy through tanks has worsened, something needs to be improved. This is what the paladin needs to improve.

If we talk about the fact that something needs to be cut in return for improving the holy light, then you can slightly reduce the duration of the divine shield, or reduce the power of the protection aura. Although it wouldn’t be fair.

For what? Dk already has 2 skills out of 3 with which Dk can heal himself.
Do you want the dk to have 3 out of 3 skills with which he can heal himself? It will be imbalanced, then it will be impossible to kill him at all.

15

rank 1 abiulity what equals top tier item drops with multiple uses. Dude, 15 seconds of imunity rank 1 IS the reason why paladin cant heal himself and cant have as good aura as dk have. Btw there other ranks of it, and holy light are lower mana cost than coil and have better animation and no fly time. I hate the fact that meta heroes in this game are the same for 20 years and i do want changes, but you suggestions dont change meta, they just make already s+ tear am-mk-pala even more broken. U cant have 2 mana per sec aura and water tauren, death coil with stun and melee nuke with debuff on tank, and buffing already overpowered support who have 2 best int he game ability one of them are invulnerability with super low cost and second opne is one of the best support skills.
Like i have another topic when i ask for buffs for blood mage, but i ask buff him not siphon mana or astral who already in use as blood mage support - i ask for only flame strike buff what DOESNT buff am or mk first (which is meta), but only budding underpowered blood mage first hero start.
You need to ask something like this, if u really wany change what might have happened - suggest equal nerfs for support powere of pala, if u want him be first pick, or change his abilities if u want him be another as support. But u cant have straight buff to support who is already in 95\100 games of humans. U cant ask for straight buff to am, u cant ask for straight buff to mk or pala, this three guys are already the only one viable and one of the most overpowered combs in the game. U cant ask to buff what already overpowered, hu already is unplayable without am or mk first and pala second or third (1 exception is am-blood mage vs demon hunter with t2 push on elf). Like how do you even see that - oh, this three guys are dominated on pick and win ratio for a race what doing just fine, lets buff on of this key hero to make it even more powerful… FOR WHAT? give you some elo, is your change make this game better? - hell no, you want to buff strat which is 20 years old, and all 20 years is meta… I just dont understand players like you, its like watching same p0rn movie for 20 years, and its even not something interesting - its home made heter0 cr@p in missioner position with 50 y\o married couple…

1 Like
16

And still, the holy light for the human race is worse in effectiveness than the death coil for the undead because the coil can cause damage to three other races, but the holy light cannot. Holy light can only damage undead creatures. Therefore, the reel is more useful and versatile.
As a counterbalance to the ability to heal yourself with light, you can increase the paladin’s holy light mana cost by 10 mana, up to 75.
If this is not enough, then you can reduce the duration of the divine shield to 13/26/39 seconds.
It will be fair.

U cant ask for straight buff to am, u cant ask for straight buff to mk or pala, this three guys are already the only one viable and one of the most overpowered combs in the game

It is necessary to evaluate not only the strength of the heroes, but also when they appear in the game according to statistics.
Humans are the weakest race in terms of health of all units. This makes them the most vulnerable to coil and nova dk and lich. DK appears at 3 minutes of the game, the lich is somewhere around 8-9. For people, MK appears at 8-9 minutes of the game, and the paladin appears already when 80% of the game has passed.

Due to low health, by this time the archmage manages to die several times because there is no one to treat him. And the number of killed undead units among humans is much lower than among the undead, because the archmage cannot inflict instant magical damage like dk and lich.

Am+mk+paladin is perhaps almost comparable in strength to the undead heroes dk+lich+vampire, but by the time the paladin appears, the archmage has already died several times, people are already losing many units, and the undead are already much more ahead of people in terms of the heroes’ experience level and the amount of resources because that a DC with a lich most often manages to destroy the second base of people and kill many workers with relatively little difficulty.

That is, it turns out that by the time the paladin appeared, the archmage had already died several times because there was no one to heal him, people suffered much greater losses in units than the undead, people have fewer resources than the undead, because dk with a lich often destroy people’s second base. Or people have the same resources as the undead. People have a worse experience level and worse artifacts because DK and Lich killed human heroes more often and did not allow them to increase their strength in neutrals.
By the time the paladin appears on the map, there are almost no neutral creeps left, and the paladin often cannot be promoted to level 3.
That is, by the time the paladin appears, the situation of people is ALREADY very difficult, it is much worse than that of the undead. And it more often ends in defeat because 70-80% of the game the undead had two heroes capable of inflicting instant magical damage to the enemy and healing their heroes, and all this time people had only one hero capable of inflicting instant magical damage, but there was no hero capable of healing his units as a dk.

You can take MK and Paladin first, but then for 70-80% of the game they will not have mana regeneration, and the undead will have regeneration from absidian statues.

Therefore, you need to evaluate not only the heroes, but also when they appear in the game.
In 70-80% of the game, the undead have two heroes capable of inflicting instant magical damage on heroes, while humans have only one. Therefore, the first 70-80% of the game is much easier for the undead to destroy human heroes than for humans to destroy undead heroes.
The undead have a hero who can heal himself and his entire army with two skills, while humans have a paladin who cannot heal himself.
Therefore, human heroes and undead heroes are NOT EQUAL in strength. Undead heroes dk+lich+vampire are stronger than am+mk+palladin.

Against the undead, humans DO NOT dominate.
Against the undead, they lose games to the undead more often than they win.
Therefore, it is necessary to strengthen the am+mk+pal stratum because it is weaker than dk+lich+vampire.

give you some elo, is your change make this game better? - hell no, you want to buff strat which is 20 years old, and all 20 years is meta… I just dont understand players like you, its like watching same p0rn movie for 20 years, and its even not something interesting - its home made heter0 cr@p in missioner position with 50 y\o married couple…

Stop talking nonsense.
If you change the paladin as I said, then they will choose him as the first hero and play with the stratum Pal+MK+Archimage or Pal+Archimage+MK. Now this strat is impossible because the paladin as the first hero cannot heal himself and quickly dies.
And if you do this, a new strategy will appear.

If the patch developers do not strengthen the paladin as I suggested, then in the next patch people will lose even more games to the undead because necromancers, to some extent, can counter tanks with a curse.

17

Are you sure about this?
am-mk-pala have 55% wr vs dk-lich-dreadlord, just look at w3 champions statistics.

19

Are you sure about this?
am-mk-pala have 55% wr vs dk-lich-dreadlord, just look at w3 champions statistics.

Where does this data come from?
At tournaments, I see how Happy takes first place more often than others, and how in the matchup of people against the undead, people lose to the undead in most games.

20

Go to w3champions site, then choose Statistics

For example you can choose the latest patch 1.36.1 and >2200 (Grandmaster)

21

w3 champions site → statistics → heroes->and shoose am-mk-pala in left column and dk-lich-dreadlord in right one, statistics said its 55wr for human. yes its NOT show like this matches with other third hero for ud (because vampire is not mandatory) and not shiwing games what end earlier than 3rd hero BUT STILL 55%wr for human favor due to statistics. And you ask to buff it, yes, its in first place buff of the holly trinity, not pala as first champion, and this is completely not justified buff.