U talking about race winratio, i said about exact hero combination.
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Heroes of all other races also have a chance of being surrounded because the Lich’s frost nova slows down their movement speed. I’ve seen successful environments made by Happy in tournaments using nova 9:24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6ZuU8ZtvKo
I was telling absolutely another thing, my point that with your pala buffs he will not be viable first pick in most patchups BUT as support he become totally overpowered.
Go to w3champions site, then choose Statistics
Here are the statistics
/OverallStatistics/winrates-per-race-and-map
It shows that more than half of the games people lose to the undead.
Humans vs undead have a 49.4% chance of winning
And then, how were these statistics collected?
Are these statistics from tournaments? or on MMR?
At tournaments, I see how people lose to the undead more often than they win.
This is statistics from w3champions ladder, you can choose whatever mmr you like to see. If you look at statistics of the latest patch and highskill players (>2200), you’ll see that Hum win 55.8% against Ud.
Yes, it’s not statistics from tournaments, but there is more information than only winrate of Happy.
Yes, it’s not statistics from tournaments, but there is more information than only winrate of Happy.
The fact of the matter is that these are not statistics from tournaments.
At tournaments there are two strong players for the undead - happy and 120.
There are also two strong players for the alliance: Fortitude and Soc.
At the tournaments that I have been watching for 6-7 years now, Fortitude with Soc, those playing for the alliance lose to Happy and 120 much more often than they win. This confirms my thesis that human heroes are weaker than undead heroes.
Your statistics may be based on MMR, or some other games, but to significantly increase the popularity of Warcraft 3, you need to make sure that in tournaments the chances of the undead and the alliance are equal. Now they are not equal and the undead are stronger.
Playing MMR is not the same as playing in tournaments. In MMR, people play more for fun, where they can make mistakes that they cannot make in tournaments. This is probably why in MMR people win more often in matchups with the undead. And this is probably why statistics on MMR show that people have a better chance than the undead. In this sense, it is not correct.
In addition, this may be influenced by the fact that the undead race is the most disliked race by players. This is confirmed by the fact that at the pro level in tournaments only 2 people play for her (Happy and 120).
Probably in MMR games it turns out that there are also fewer strong players for the undead, and the majority of weak ones, but in MMR games there are many stronger people against them due to the fact that people are a more popular race among players. And it turns out that there are few strong players for the undead, and much more for people, so the statistics of victories for people in MMR games is more in favor of people. While at the tournament level it shows that the undead are stronger than people.
We need statistics from tournaments. It’s more correct. And besides this, you can simply make a poll about which race is stronger - the undead or the alliance. I think that in the poll the majority will vote for the fact that the undead are stronger.
At tournaments for 6-7 years now, I have seen the opposite: that in a matchup between people and the undead, people lose to the undead much more often, because the undead are stronger.
To increase the popularity of Warcraft 3, you need to improve not MMR games, but tournament games, because it is through tournament games that you can, if not get rich, at least support yourself by playing Warcraft like Happy.
And in tournament games, the undead in most cases defeat people. I have a feeling that those who make patches for Warcraft either do not watch tournament games, or they do, but decisions about changing the balance in the game are made on the basis of MMR games and not on the basis of tournament games. This is the key reason why Warcraft is still not very popular.
To be honest, I don’t care about the statistics from tournaments. Most players in wc3 are not pro and they want to play balanced game. What is not correct is trying to analyse balance only from few top players.
If we talk about poll I doubt it would be objective. Firstly as you say “the undead race is the most disliked race by players”. And secondly all the people are biased, we need statistics from real games: tournaments and mmr both. The more data, the more accurate the conclusion will be. But I’m not an expert here, so I’ll shut up))
What I wanted to say is that it’s not obvious that Ud is stronger than Hum in current balance, this is a controversial issue. And I leave it to comunity for further discussions.
Are you a developer of patches for Warcraft or a technical director who is responsible for what changes will be in the next patch?
Most players in wc3 are not pro and they want to play balanced game
Right now the game is not balanced, because in tournament games the undead often defeat people.
What is not correct is trying to analyse balance only from few top players
No, on the contrary, it is on the basis of tournament games that it is correct to calculate the balance and not on the basis of MMR.
Because in tournament games, all the best advantages and disadvantages of all races are revealed and exploited by the players the most. The strengths of one’s own race are most exploited, and the weaknesses of the enemy’s race are most often targeted.
Therefore, the balance needs to be calculated and changed based specifically on tournament games.
Low-level players look at the fact that at the pro level of tournaments, the human race is weaker than the undead, and the undead dominate everyone, so they do not want to move to the pro level. Therefore, the audience of pro players participating in tournaments is almost not growing.
In addition to them, those who have not yet bought the game and are wondering whether it is worth buying it usually want to see what the game is like and what its balance is. They can only do this by watching tournaments on YouTube. At tournaments on YouTube, they see that the undead race dominates over others and wins more often than others, so only those who want to play as the undead buy Warcraft. But there is no desire to play for the other three races because they see that they are weaker, so players who would like to play for other races do not want to buy Warcraft.
For this reason, the Warcraft audience is hardly growing, and for this reason its sales are low.
To increase the number of sales of a game, you need to make the game more popular. To make it more popular, it needs to have an influx of new players who want to reach the pro level and participate in tournaments. And in order to increase the number of such pro-players, it is necessary for players who have not yet bought the game to see that the balance in tournaments between all races is more or less even, and one undead race does not dominate the others, and the alliance is not the weakest race.
But it is impossible to worsen the capabilities of the undead race, otherwise undead players will stop playing for it. This means we need to improve the race of people in the ways that I proposed.
In addition, it is necessary to radically expand the game in terms of the variety of new strategies and tactics in it for the remaining two races of orcs and elves. To do this, you need to add everything that I suggested in the topic about 49 improvements because this will diversify the game as much as possible in terms of new tactics and strategies
And after all or most of this is added, then based on what was added, make adjustments to the quantitative indicators of the figures in the balance sheet. Increase some and decrease some in numbers in order to achieve balance between the races. It will be visible there.
It seems to me that this is the only way to achieve a significant growth in the audience of Warcraft 3 and an increase in its sales. I have experience balancing other computer games, and it tells me that this is the only way to qualitatively improve Warcraft.
To understand all this, you need to have a humanitarian mindset like mine and understand psychology. It seems to me that the developers of patches for Warcraft worked for a very long time with people with a physical and mathematical mindset (technical people), otherwise they would not have made such mistakes in psychology that resulted in the wrong paths for the development of Warcraft.
What I wanted to say is that it’s not obvious that Ud is stronger than Hum in current balance, this is a controversial issue. And I leave it to comunity for further discussions.
This is very easy to check if you conduct a couple of surveys among the game’s audience. For example, collect all the top players who participate in tournaments more often than others and hold a vote among them - are the undead the most powerful race in tournament Warcraft? I think most will answer yes.
The same can be done among Warcraft spectators. I think they will also say yes.
And the same can be done among MMR players; more than half of them will also answer yes.
Paladin doesn’t need a buff. He’s already a popular hero used with certain popular early to midgame strategies.
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No, the first hero is not used in tournaments because he has nothing to heal with. His health quickly runs out, which is why he cannot take part in battle.
He needs strengthening through the ability to heal himself because his opponent DK has 2 out of 3 skills with which he can heal himself, and the paladin has none. It turns out unfair and unbalanced.
OK, I really can’t take you seriously now lol. Pally can stay in the fight plenty long with his invincibility that lasts longer than the invincibility granted by any item.
And again, you’re basing this on pro play, and there is more to the game than pro play.
You’re basically legally obligated to use Paladin if you use Riflemen, and it’s still plenty useful otherwise. In my experience, something like half of all HU players go Pala/Rifles as their initial plan. Whether or not pros do it, it is very popular. It definitely isn’t “unfair” or “unbalanced.” And healing yourself for so little would be a waste of mana, you’re better off just carrying a potion.
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This does not negate the fact that at the professional level, a paladin is never taken as the first hero precisely because he cannot heal himself like a DK. The palladin spends all his mana on healing other units, after which he often does not have any left for the divine shield. Or the palladin’s opponents simply wait for him to finish and spend their mana to quickly kill him with magic. DK can heal himself with aura without mana, but paladin cannot. That’s why DK is stronger.
The professional level of play shows better than the amateur level what strengths or weaknesses are in the game because they are used there more than at the amateur level.
And healing yourself for so little would be a waste of mana, you’re better off just carrying a potion.
Well, then what is the problem with adding this small buff if it is so disadvantageous and insignificant?
The potion costs gold, and healing with your abilities is free and increases with mana recovery.
And again, you’re basing this on pro play, and there is more to the game than pro play.
But it is the balance in a professional game that most influences whether they want to buy the game, improve their skills in it to a professional level, and the overall popularity of the game.
If the balance in a professional game is unbalanced, then amateur players have no incentive to become professional players, and therefore the game’s audience does not grow.
This is the case with all tournament games.
If you have influence on making decisions about how the balance of the game will develop, then what is stopping you from making at least one of the changes I suggested (healing the palladin with the holy light of himself), and then see what happens, and then it will become clear whether it was beneficial or to the detriment?
You can always undo it in the next patch.
And if it goes to harm, then you can immediately prove to me that you are wrong. But I can’t be wrong, because my perception and systems thinking have never let me down. Before Warcraft, I successfully balanced three other games, and the changes that I proposed and the developers implemented benefited these games by increasing their interest and popularity.
You don’t have systems thinking. If patches for Warcraft are developed by people like you, then it is not surprising that Warcraft is still so little popular.
I’m done with these kind of arguments. War3’s pro scene is tiny. Now, it is a shame, I’ll agree, but since it was decimated by Activision’s lack of caring during Reforged’s development, War3 used to be and no longer is present on the big gaming tours anymore. The “pros” we have today are here because they love the game and not really as career gamers, because there simply isn’t enough prize pool in war3 tournaments since not that many care about it anymore.
It is better for everyone if the game is balanced with the majority of the population in mind, because War3 is not and will never be a big cash cow ever again.
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Why is it limited to this strange range and others are not players?
Why not refer to professional competitions?
Do you think the level of professional competitions is low or fake?
There are fewer prize funds and tournaments than they could be because at the professional level there is an imbalance that makes the undead the strongest race of all, humans the weakest race, and other races have no other strategies for playing among themselves except the old ones. Because of this, the outcome of tournaments is often predictable and uninteresting. Therefore, tournament sponsors are reluctant to sponsor tournaments where the outcome is often predictable.
It is better for everyone if the game is balanced with the majority of the population in mind, because War3 is not and will never be a big cash cow ever again.
If the developers of patches for Warcraft do not focus their development of patches on the equality of different races at the professional tournament level, then the number of tournament professional players will gradually decrease. The number of tournaments will be reduced. And along with this, the number of amateur players playing Warcraft will decrease. This will lead to the fact that Warcraft will generally die as a discipline, and the developers will lose even the small community they have now.
This is what will happen if you do not change the balance in tournaments, and focus on the casual and amateur level of players.
Warcraft is not Call of Duty and not LOL. There are other higher requirements for the game, so casual players who play call of duty do not play it.
Question: do you have anything to do with the development of patches for Warcraft 3 or can you significantly influence the developers of these patches?
NO. NO no no no no no. just NO.
There are fewer prize funds and tournaments because no one gives a flying blankety-blank about Warcraft III. There’s literally no other reason. Now I won’t disagree that an incredibly sloppy, totally unbalanced game might be less interesting to watch, because the results will be more predictable. However, whatever balance issues may exist, the game’s balance isn’t so bad that all matches are uninteresting. The simple reality is this is a 20 year old game and most people have moved on, and the botched release of Reforged pushed a lot of people away. These factors are all way, way, way, way, way WAY bigger than any balance issue could possibly hope to be.
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What have you found here as strange? Keyword is “example”, you can investigate any mmr you like. And it was addressed not to you, but to person who didn’t know about w3champions statistics.
I’ve already written here that if you want deeply understand the problems of balance, you should consider ladder and tournament statistics both.
No, I don’t think so. But also I don’t think that it is correct to judge about the entire balance and domination of one race due to one professional player. Statistics work on large numbers, otherwise the role of the human factor becomes greater. At the same time it’s hard to separate problems of balance and personal skill at low level of mmr. That’s why my example was about highskill guys which play tournaments too. There are more than 10 players in statistics and it’s more objective than blaming the entire race in dominance due to one or two proplayers.
Anyway, as I said before, I’m not an expert. So I leave it to professionals and not to persons who think that if you repeat something several times it become truth.
I’ll leave this here just in case. In Russia, I am the only one who writes anti-communist and anti-militarist articles involving research by academicians of the Russian Academy of Sciences, international historians, and independent historians with reputation
/2ch.hk /b/arch/2019-05-09/res/196047956.html
/2ch.hk/b/arch/2019-06-04/res/197579433.html
/2ch.hk/b/arch/2019-10-02 /res/204744208.html
/2ch.hk/b/arch/2020-05-18/res/220482213.html
/2ch.hk/b/arch/2019-06-28/res/199008745.html
/2ch.hk /b/arch/2021-01-05/res/236991191.html
Watching Warcraft tournaments is perhaps the only joy in life that gives me serotonin and dopamine.
Serotonin and dopamine give me the ability to work and the ability to write articles that are sometimes read in the Kremlin. I saw signs that even Putin was reading my articles.
Perhaps I could write articles that could stop the war in Ukraine, or encourage Putin to stop the course of building an aggressive dictatorial state that he is pursuing now. But I don’t have enough dopamine and serotonin for this because, due to my health, I am a depressed disabled person.
Changing the balance of tournament warcraft could result in giving me more serotonin and dopamine to write these articles in time. For example, before Putin decides to launch a nuclear strike on Ukraine or a nuclear war.
No matter how paradoxical it may sound, to some extent the fate of several countries, or even the whole world (without jokes and trolling) indirectly depends on whether the balance in professional tournament Warcraft 3 is changed for the better.
What if I don’t have enough serotonin and dopamine to write these articles, and if they ask me why I didn’t write these articles on time? I will answer “Unfortunately, in the depressive state I was in then, I did not have enough serotonin and dopamine for this. One of the big reasons for this was that the developers did not improve the balance of professional tournament Warcraft 3 from watching which I then received serotonin and dopamine most of all."
I’m not crazy or schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur. I’m just saying it as it really is. If this happens, then over time I will write about it in my live journal
/soloninoforcer.livejournal.com/1178.html.
Neither I nor anyone else here said you’re crazy. Disagreeing with someone’s opinions on something doesn’t mean we don’t like them or think they’re crazy.
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A few months ago, I saw someone pushing this range(>=2200) for me, and I found the data very strange. The ten people with low winning rates at the end of the range accounted for the majority of the UD
Among them, there is Eer0, a frequent finalist and winner; however, his ladder win rate is only 45% (now 55%)
A friend told me that this eer0 often said the opponent’s race IMBA when winning, and in live game broadcasts, he often deliberately created a situation where UD was the weakest, creating some data that showed UD’s weakness;
Give his fans the illusion that UD is weak but several levels stronger than his opponents, for example, if he wins against NE, he will say that DH is really IMBA, but I won;
In recent years, UD has basically monopolized the championship. After UD won the championship, his fans often said that UD players were several levels stronger than their opponents, using the winning percentage(WC3 LADDER >2200) of this segment to illustrate the weakness of the UD. The only reason for winning the championship is that the players are far stronger than their opponents;
This is fraud and brainwashing
EER0 has been criticized, but now the winning rate of W3C as risen to 55%. Therefore, the reference value of this division is very low