Blizzard should have left RoC players on older patch

[wc3tutor-1926]

@Triceron-1519

I do think they should keep RoC too but to be honest I think people need to move on from that as well considering a divided community is never a good thing IMO.

RoC players pretty much stay in their own bubble and rarely interact with the rest of the TFT playing community. I can’t say it’s a good thing for the game either. Just my opinion.

its just a sign of poor customer service to abandon longtime fans of RoC… there was nothing wrong with RoC players having their own separate (and smaller) ladder

[KingOmelette-1782]

@wc3tutor-1926

I cant find the proof right this minute, but you have to please believe me when I say I know for a fact that blizzard has been talking with certain wc3 players on discord (they don’t communicated anywhere else, they only use discord to chat with specific people) and there were some leaks for new items, and an entirely revamped system where items are locked based on your hero level (so like for example you cant buy boots of speed without being a certain level, just as an example). That is just one example

Any screenshots or logs or articles or anything about this?

@wc3tutor-1926

Another example is skins. Blizzard has already confirmed that heroes will have a variety of skins, this is so they can sell skin packs.

How do we know it’s for microtransactions? The only things we know is that there’s going to be some male/female alternate hero models. We know there will be campaign versions of melee heroes. And we know that there’s going to be some pre-order skins.

Starcraft: Remastered had pre-order skins for the Command Center, Nexus, and Hatchery. But no other skin has ever been made or released for in-game units. Just user interface stuff and even then, nothing you can buy.

@wc3tutor-1926

If reforged is a success it could be very easy for blizzard to add a couple new heroes. And I would be very surprised if they don’t add at least a few. If you think blizzard isn’t going to add more stuff (some of which may have an extra pay wall) your crazy

This is why reforged = an expansion (IN MY OPINION)

I’ve hoped for new stuff for Reforged specifically. Small stuff like alternate hero models or even something bigger like another side campaign like the Founding of Durotar was. Especially for the longer term of ‘hey look, more things for mapmakers to play with’.

But new unique heroes don’t make a whole expansion.

[wc3tutor-1926]

@KingOmelette-1782

Any screenshots or logs or articles or anything about this?

maybe later… I got to go for a little while… but its really hard to find (its somewhere on reddit)

btw if Reforged wasn’t an expansion, it wouldn’t have a price tag, and Im willing to bet they add more microtransactions after its released

[Triceron-1519]

No no, don’t get me wrong. I agree that there is nothing wrong with RoC having its own system.

But I think for the game overall, having separate ladders for each iteration of the game (RoC, TFT, Reforged) would not be a good idea overall. It splinters the community and the community is small enough as it is. It really should be one game that we’re all talking about. It would help newcomers integrate themselves into the game as well, and not be confused which ladder to start playing as if they needed to learn RoC before moving up the next level to TFT or something.

But I’m not an expert on this. Again, my only interest is in custom games. I just tend to look at these things from a wider perspective than ‘what is best for me’. In the end this game has the potential to be the gateway RTS for some new generation of gamers who look on it as fondly as some of us looked back on WC3. Things need to be streamlined because they aren’t on the same progression level as we started out with from the beginning.

[wc3tutor-1926]

I never once said we need 3 ladders… but I do think it would have been better if they released a separate new world editor instead of breaking the original one

[Triceron-1519]

Eh. Bugs get fixed. Let’s not assume that is on the same level as an entire melee ladder being removed permanently. It’s a completely different issue, agree?

[wc3tutor-1926]

different issue, same perspective - poor quality control, poor customer service

all we can do now is hope that when reforged launches we don’t have to deal with the same types of problems, such as glitches and waiting weeks for a fix (which from what Ive read is exactly what happened when they first launched SC:R) only with WC:R the problems are bigger (again this is just IMO)

[wc3tutor-1926]

@KingOmelette-1782

Any screenshots or logs or articles or anything about this?

https://www.reddit.com/r/WC3/comments/b3wc7k/statements_from_a_member_of_the_classic_games_team/

[viiksivallu-21127]

Blizzard should have left the game alone after they removed delay&fixed matchmaking&allowed everyone to host customgames.

Useless incompetence

[Vlux-21693]

Congratulations for killing RoC, Blizzard. You REALLY did it this time.

[Takowasabi-1952]

I can only think of positives for this. It would provide a unified and increased player pool so that queue times will be shorter. What exactly is the problem?

[Takowasabi-1952]

Very good point; that’s exactly right.

[Takowasabi-1952]

@wc3tutor-1926

But an updated, improved version of the game from 2019 is unable to do that? its a joke that a 2003 game could support 2 ladders but a new improved game is killing 2 ladders to make 1 new one

Well, it’s a real stretch to say that it could support 2 ladders. Depending on what area the world you live in and what time zone you’re available to play, you absolutely could not find ladder matches at all (I’m talking just sitting in the queue for an hour with nothing) even for 2s.

[Adûnâi-2366]

@KingOmelette-1782

Considering the idea of cross-compatability being a major point of Reforged’s release, I’m going to go out on a limb and say it’s very likely that it and the original games will share a ladder.

Yes. If it had been a new game, it would have been still born. It’s the major part about the entirety of Reforged!

@wc3tutor-1926

I don’t disagree with you but that would be HORRIBLE!!! It would show that blizzard doesn’t care, that they lie, and that the entire idea of remastering a game is a joke

What are we gaining from this that would be better than having Reforged as a standalone game?

lmao

@KingOmelette-1782

I know that the Brood War ladder remained a separate entity from the Remastered ladder.

Actually, Brood War did not have a ladder. Only custom games. So those who didn’t buy Remastered did not get a ladder but still retained the custom games.

Brood War did have private servers such as iCCup or Fish that tracked player’s match history and gave them ranks A-D. I’m a noob, too, but from what I understand, you still had to play purely custom games.

@wc3tutor-1926

It sounds cool to be able to say “players who own the original can play with players who own Reforged” but its a cheap selling tactic

It’s a major f tactic. It’s the reason why Reforged is not going to murder the game.

@KingOmelette-1782

The use of ‘disabled’ rather than ‘removed’ or ‘deleted’. Again, the most I can muster is thinking that - again - something’s gone really askew while they’re working on all the programming and coding and online systems.

They haven’t removed the ability to make non-Lord of Destruction characters in Diablo 2, I can still hop onto not-Brood War BattleNet for Starcraft. They recently rereleased Diablo 1, Warcraft 1, and Warcraft 2 on GOG. It’s the optimist in me, but I don’t think they’re permanently axing Reign of Chaos’ online.

I’m 98% sure the Classic team has that hope as well, but they sure as hell cannot admit it as that would mean they have the definite responsibility to make it work.

It would be bad if the sole reason is the fear that new players would choose RoC over TFT.

But there is a definite good in all this - at least, some RoC players might try out TFT and actually grow to like it.

[Adûnâi-2366]

@wc3tutor-1926

I just don’t see how it would have hurt the community if Reforged was made as a standalone expansion instead of a “remastering” of the original game. I’m not explaining myself enough because Im getting tired.

This would kill WC3. The forums would be a sh!tshow. All the complaints about Reforged graphics would be validated a thousand times - and why wouldn’t they? You are making people buy Reforged! Because face it, the “original TFT” ladder would be dead. Dead. No re. You would be left there playing with yourself. And maybe with some unfortunate individual who bought the wrong version like those HS streamers who purchased card packs from the wrong expansion.

@wc3tutor-1926

Like I said before, backward compatibility sounds nice but its not that important imo. and its not the same thing as cross-platform compatibility. I personally don’t care about backward compatibility, if I want to play TFT ill play TFT, if I want to play Reforged ill play Reforged, I don’t need them to be compatible. That’s like saying lets make RoC and TFT compatible, its pointless

TFT did not destroy the custom game scene only because it came a year after. The backward compatibility is a must. Honestly, how don’t you understand that your suggestions would have caused a raging volcano on the forums, and most likely a massive exodus of players?

By the way, you can already play the “classic TFT ladder” just fine - W3arena is up and running, Garena too, GameRanger too, the MMH client too… What’s stopping you?

P.S. Does anybody know whether RoC maps could be played in TFT in 2003? I know little myself. Only that DotA had to be ported, recreated.

[Adûnâi-2366]

@wc3tutor-1926

its all just semantics and opinion, but imo reforged is an expansion, but we are losing the “Classic” tft in the process… the whole point of my thread is that there should be 2 separate ladders, one that retains classic TFT and one that allows for new changes

You are using “expansion” as a meaningless buzzword. Online games constantly change. See SC2, HotS, various DotAs. Don’t bring up BW because the whole point of BW is that it doesn’t change.

I would divide WC3’s life’s into stages.

1. 2002-2003 RoC. All the RoC players were picked up during this period, I wonder?
2. 2003-2004 Rapid changes and growth. An expansion with 3 units per race, 5 neutral heroes, buildings and items. Followed by numerous balance patches and 3 more neutral heroes.
3. 2005-2011. Very small changes and tweaks.
4. 2011-2018. Literally no balance patches.
5. 2018-2020 Reforged. A new phase of rapid changes.

What I’m saying is that 1.26 is a far cry from the Classic version. For that, try 1.17.
https://liquipedia.net/warcraft/Patch_1.17

By the way, can the pre-BW StarCraft be played on Bnet?

[thunderfly-11374]

@wc3tutor-1926

If a new player buys reforged they get RoC and TFT for free, which could have been true wether Reforged was an addon or expansion or standalone game. So that doesn’t matter. The whole gimmick of backward compatibility is a fudging joke because all it means is they are making the original game unplayable

I think you don’t understand this is a graphical update, roc and tft will be the same they will continue to be there, you only fear the balance changes they make (being good or bad), but you know even if reforged wouldn’t come out this balance changes and the closure of RoC ladder would have occur either way but you will not be “Mad” or fearing that they are closing the “old” games for the “new” game (They are the same Reforged is JUST a graphical Update).

[Adûnâi-2366]

@wc3tutor-1926

Can we expect the same treatment for classic TFT? Does blizzard plan on making just one ladder for Reforged and Classic combined? I surely hope not

Reforged should have been its own separate game. You should have left WC3 alone and released Reforged as a stand alone game. It would have had far less complaints. You could have still used the original WC3 engine with the new modifications you are making. No reason we should have to trade in the old game just to get the new one.

@wc3tutor-1926

whatever you read you misinterpreted, what I want is for classic owners to still be able to play with reforged owners, but there should be a classic ladder without changes and a modern ladder with new improvements. I know exactly what I said so dont twist my words

@wc3tutor-1926

crossplay = classic owners to still be able to play with reforged owners

thats what i said, learn to read

How is this supposed to work?

Oh yeah, I’m such a “troll” for pointing out the inconsistency in your logic. Even Momoiro has more integrity.

How can there be anything resembling cross-play with two different ladders? What is a ladder in your language?

Ladder is a chaos.

[Satan915-1871]

@thunderfly-11374

I think you don’t understand this is a graphical update, roc and tft will be the same they will continue to be there, you only fear the balance changes they make (being good or bad), but you know even if reforged wouldn’t come out this balance changes and the closure of RoC ladder would have occur either way but you will not be “Mad” or fearing that they are closing the “old” games for the “new” game (They are the same Reforged is JUST a graphical Update).

Generally speaking, everything past patch 1.26 is part of the remastering effort or Reforged as a whole. Prior to that there hadn’t been a patch in 4 years. The whole reason they started patching the game again is to get it ready for Reforged. All these balance changes, new or changed features, server and compatibility upgrades, and bug fixes (along with new bugs) probably wouldn’t have happened if they weren’t remastering the game. Similarly, Starcraft hadn’t gotten patched in 8 years, but then it started getting all that stuff aside from balance changes in preparation for the remaster.

It also makes no sense to think that they would’ve shut down RoC ladder even if they weren’t releasing a remaster. They had kept it up and running for 16 years after TFT was released, and chose to shut it down the same year that the remaster will be out. That’s no coincidence, in fact they even said that it was because of non-trivial connection issues with the unified game client, or in other words, because of the remastering effort.

@Adûnâi-2366

You are using “expansion” as a meaningless buzzword. Online games constantly change. See SC2, HotS, various DotAs. Don’t bring up BW because the whole point of BW is that it doesn’t change.

I would divide WC3’s life’s into stages.

1. 2002-2003 RoC. All the RoC players were picked up during this period, I wonder?
2. 2003-2004 Rapid changes and growth. An expansion with 3 units per race, 5 neutral heroes, buildings and items. Followed by numerous balance patches and 3 more neutral heroes.
3. 2005-2011. Very small changes and tweaks.
4. 2011-2018. Literally no balance patches.
5. 2018-2020 Reforged. A new phase of rapid changes.

What I’m saying is that 1.26 is a far cry from the Classic version. For that, try 1.17.
https://liquipedia.net/warcraft/Patch_1.17

But then you agree that for most of this decade, Warcraft 3 didn’t change much, kind of like Brood War. Patch 1.26 became that sort of “final version” like Brood War’s 1.16. That is, until the remaster. So why should BW’s balance get to stay the same while WC3’s gets changed so drastically? Maybe it’s not as balanced as BW, but some people still might rather not have all these changes.

So to answer your most recent post on cross-play and ladders, what TC wants is a separate, classic ladder that both classic and reforged players could play on, with none of the balance changes past 1.26. Both classic and reforged players could of course play on the modern ladder too, with all the current balance changes. Effectively there would still be cross-compatibility between classic and reforged players, just that it would only be on the ladder mode of their choosing. It’s like being divided among 1v1, 2v2, FFA or AT.

[GordoBobo-1361]

killing ROC for this reforged joke, its a TFT with a bad skin, pathetic. ROC was the best version ever