Dude you are living in a world of fantasies. I can easily name many OP things, that have UD. For example flying, magic immune unit has essentially 1500-2000 hp(thanks to coil, statues, aura and devour) and at the same time has DPS comparable to those of griffons and viverns. The fact is this has huge impact on the game, not a bs you listed. And the fact is all “OP” things you listed not nearly enough to beat UD at around 50%, as it should be in a balanced game. Yeah, your post is definitely weird.
Many pro players say, that it’s not just skill, there is a racial disbalance. You can find reddit topic of Focus, Sok and Lawliet talk about balance. Probably their opinion is still more authoritative the opinion of a random guy playing UD at 1200 mmr no?
You took my message too seriously) This is not about specific mechanics or my advice. This is an outsider’s view of the subjectivity of balance assessment. There is some irony in my post. And I, of course, do not pretend to argue about the specific nuances of balance with pro players.
What better place to test changes than the PTR!
In general there are a lot of abilities that don’t receive lower mana cost or cooldown reduction when you put additional points into them. The Editor came with this option for every ability. This would be a good tool to orchestrate balance.
Neutral
Pitlord
- Rain of Fire mana cost reduced from 85 to 75
- Rain of Fire cooldown reduced from 85 to 75
- Rain of Fire level 2 area of effect increased from 200 to 250
- Rain of Fire level 3 area of effect increased from 250 to 300
- Doom Guard (Summonend) Ultimate movement speed increased from 270 to 320
Pitlord Rain of Fire is literally a dead ability. Mana cost and cooldown reduction put him on par with Archmage blizzard. Area of effect increase gives incentive to Rain of fire max builds. Pit Lord Ultimate is great fun but often very underwhelming because the doomguard is slow and clunky. The movement speed increase will give the Doom Guard the same movement speed as the Dreadlords Infernal.
Alchemist
- Chemical Rage level 2 cooldown reduced from 30 to 26 seconds
- Chemical Rage level 3 cooldown reduced from 30 to 22 seconds
Chemical rage focused strategies lets go!
Dark Ranger
- Life Drain level 2 cooldown reduced from 8 to 6 seconds
- Life Drain level 3 cooldown reduced from 8 to 4 seconds
- Life Drain level 2 mana cost reduced from 50 to 45 mana
- Life Drain level 3 mana cost reduced from 50 to 40 mana
Life drain hype! This will help the Dark Ranger to life steal again after being interrupted.
Tinker
- Pocket Factory level 3 detonation dmg increased from 80 to 90
- Pocket Factory level 2 mana cost reduced from 125 to 115
- Pocket Factory level 3 mana cost reduced from 125 to 100
- Pocket Factory level 2 cooldown reduction reduced from 35 seconds to 30
- Pocket Factory level 3 cooldown reduction reduced from 35 seconds to 25
Pocket Factory has very low playrate. This will incentivize more Pocket Factory play. Pocket Factory Detonation damage starts at 30dmg then 60dmg at level 2 so it only makes sense that getting a third level in it should reward you the same amount.
Beastmaster
- Beastmaster Strength increased from 22 to 23
- Level-2 hawk hit points increased from 450 to 625
- Level-3 hawk hit points increased from 650 to 875
- Stampede cast range increased from 300 to 900
- Summon Bear cooldown decreased from 40 seconds to 35 seconds
Beastmaster playrate is very low. The changes partially revert the nerfs the Beastmaster received in 2003 when Meta was still getting figured out. Plus 1 strength will put him to the same starting hp as a DK. Hawk builds are never played. The stampede cast range is extremely low compared to other channels Death and Decay (1000 Range) Tornado (900 Range)
Firelord
- Soul burn can now target mechanical units
- Soul burn level 2 cooldown reduced from 12 to 8 seconds
- Soul burn level 3 cooldown reduced from 12 to 6 seconds
- Soulburn level 2 mana cost reduced from 65 to 60 mana
- Soulburn level 3 mana cost reduced from 65 to 55 mana
- Summon Lava Spawn level 2 mana cost reduced from 150 to 125
- Summon Lava Spawn level 3 mana cost reduced from 150 to 100
The latest changes have been great for Firelord playrate which shows how much hype new patches bring. Nobody ever max levels Soulburn first. Yes it should be strong when you put 3 points into it. It could even be considered to give Soul Burn a 0.5 second stun. Lava Spawn mana cost is too high at later levels (150) for an agility hero and Soulburn is useless. 150 Mana at all 3 levels is a lot for any race that has mana issues. In comparison Water Elemental is 125 mana on a hero with a mana aura.
Human
Bloodmage
- Banish movement speed reduction reduced from 50% to 10%
- Flame Strike casting time reduced from 0.9 to 0.5 seconds
The Blood Mage is underplayed especially in competitive play. The few times he is played in competitive Flame Strike is not even skilled. Canceling Flame Strike by accidentally moving to early is very unfun. Reducing channel time will also give opponents slightly less time to react. Banish slowing less will help microing your own units to safety making this ability a lot more valuable and skill emphasized.
Orc
- Blademaster Agility increased from 22 to 24
Reverting the nerf from 2018. Orc is struggling in the undead matchup in the pro scene where blademaster was always the go to hero. Claw nerf plus the agility nerf really hurt him. This will help in the early game where creeping speed and health is especially important.
Night Elf
- Demon Hunter base Agility increased from 21 to 22
Reverting the nerf from 2018. Elf is struggling a little bit in every match up in the pro scene. Claw nerf plus the agility nerf hurt the Demon Hunter aswell. This change might not be necessary since elf is already getting the moonwell buff tho and orc is getting buff too but those are small tweaks and can be adjusted again.
Items
Permanent level 5
-
Medallion of Courage stat increase changed from +5 to +6 for each stat provide
-
Helm of Valor stat increase changed from +5 to +6 for each stat provide
-
Hood of Cunning stat increase changed from +4 to +6 for each stat provide
As of now these items drop at a red spot creep camp which also drops very powerful aura items. Heroes mainly desire their main attribute so these items are basically worse than having 2 items that you could find at a lvl 1 green creep camp. For Example 2x +3 Mantle of Intelligence would have more impact on an int hero. In the same sense a level 4 permanent item like Boots of Quel’Thalas +6 would be more desirable for an Agility hero. These items really need to be adjusted to +6 or even +7.
Permanent level 3
- Ring of Regeneration is now in the level 2 permanent item drop table
- Ring of Regeneration cost and sell value adjusted to 125 / 75
Currently there are only 3 items in the level 2 drop table. Ring of regeneration fits in nicely and frees up the stuffed level 3 drop table.
BTW how about the permanent lvl 1 items that give +3 (mantle etc) to have a stronger version that gives +4 for the really tiny lvl 2 permanent drop table. You could just change the color code and call it “Enhanced Gauntles of Strength” or would that be too op?
Experience
- The experience bonus for having a single Hero and owning a tier-2 or tier-3 town hall increased to +20%/+35% from +15%/+30%.
There is already a debuff for hero intelligence gain that increases per level for every hero in the game and goes down to 0% experience gained at lvl 5. This would increase 1 hero only strategies. This will also make seeing ultimates a little bit more common especially in 1v1 / pro play. Might also open up for more strategies and heroes with currently low play rate.
Those are just a few patch suggestion but there is so much more to talk about concerning units, items heroes etc but of course not everything can be addressed in one PTR.
It would also be great if you made Warcraft 3 free to play. This could attract a lot of new players especially younger players and potentially open up an income source for blizzard through skin and other in game content sales
Thank you for reading!
Why nerf arcane? HU is already the weakest on early. If any, nerf hu at late game, not early. Also HU is the race with the weakest economy. Acos are tank (for a miner) and fast, wisp are fast and can hide in trees and goldmines, peon can hide in burrows. But peasants are very vulnerable, why making even weaker by nerfing arcane?
I also dont get why HU is the race with the least important buffs on this patch, is not like the race is doing extra well on competitive.
UD is getting some nice buffs, maybe is time not to only nerf the frenzy ghouls, but also lich. Nova should have much less range at lvl 1. Maybe 600 like entangle. Is ok if at lvl 3 is 800 range.
edit: My post is on twitch, go infi+fly!
Please do not make polymorph work on heroes! It will ruin the game.
Enforcer and bandit lord not having shadow meld is something I have been thinking about for a long time for my campaign coop map, excellent change! Enforcer health from 500 to 600 is also great change when buying the unit from merchant in sylvanas vs varimathras TFT campaign map. Love that Wand of Negation is being updated.
Lots of good changes!
If I may give some feedback:
- It would be great to see the slow and faerie fire spells get the same duration cut as curse (it’s not great when an army is affected by these spells long after the fight is over if they don’t have dispel)
- ELF - Anti-magic potion would be a lot more useful if it couldn’t be dispelled (can revert duration back to around 10 seconds to balance this out). This would give elfs better chances to keep their heroes alive vs undead and surviving the frenzy push. I don’t think it would break any other match-ups.
- ORC - Add an extra healing salve charge for each tier upgrade (4 charges on tier 2 and 5 charges on tier 3) It becomes very cost inefficient for orcs to heal up armies over 50 supply which makes them too dependent on the shadow hunter. Alternatively you could reshuffle witch doctor spells to give them healing wards at adept training (with balance adjustment)
- UNDEAD - The wand of negation should probably be a single target dispel not an AoE with a cost of a 100 gold for 2 charges. (and a small cool-down)
- UNDEAD - Curse on mechanical units is gonna kill tank strats vs undead altogether. (probably not a good change)
- ELF - Give the warden +1 to each stat. She is a hero with good spells but lackluster attributes; she dies too fast, her right click damage is quite low and she runs out of mana very fast. This is why she is barely played on high level. I would suggest nerfing her ultimate at the cost of making her stronger earlier (currently it’s all about getting her to level 6 to have a good chance of winning or lose before that happens)
Hope you consider my suggestions.
Keep up the good work!
Bad.
Good.
Bad.
Good.
Bad.
Good.
Good.
Good.
Super bad.
Super bad.
Good.
Bad.
Bad.
Good.
Good.
Good.
Good.
Good.
Good.
Bad (more dependence on Statues).
Good.
Good.
Good.
All in all - 8 bad, 15 good.
I suggest making the following changes for Warcraft 3.
Orc.
Increase the cost of constructing concrete on burrow. Why do this? Previously there was an opportunity to push an orc at the beginning of T2, but now this opportunity is gone. The orc has the most powerful defense base, I think it needs to be weakened. This will bring diversity to the Warcraft 3 game.
Orcs are very strong in defense. The undead cannot penetrate the orc on T2.
Yes, and on T1 there is no way to do this either. I think this is too much. Peonies always feel good.
Otherwise, orcs are a normal race, with their advantages and disadvantages. This is fine. I think there is no need to touch the Orcs.
Elves.
We need to remove 85 mana from Keeper.
Elves are strong, they always have a choice between heroes.
I believe that a goalkeeper should not play against the undead. Therefore, return him 100 mana. An Elf can easily take DH or Dark Ranger. The elf has a choice.
Undead.
We need to improve the Oboms, increase their HP by 55, I think that the Oboms are very weak. They need to be strengthened, because this is a T3 Unit. Therefore, increasing them by 55 HP will not be a critical moment.
Ghoul, move Frenzy to T2, but reduce their attack speed to 15-20 percent, instead of 30.
undead are not very strong at T2, I think that ghouls can just fix that.
Improve the shadow for the undead. Make it so that the Shadow can pass through enemy units, like a blade master. give the opportunity for Shadow to have a backpack for one thing. This will give the Undead the opportunity to do other things. Buy the same scrolls in a neutral store.
This will be fun, because by killing the shadow, the opponent can get the Undead item. It will be fun) .
Human
Sorcs don’t need buffs, they are already a good unit. no one uses polymorph because slow costs less mana and doesn’t need upgrades.
You need arcane tower vs harass, dont need change arcane damage.
Orc
Tauren are tier 3 units like aboms, knights and bears. Improve tauren status instead of putting it in tier 2
NE
KOTG is one of the best early hero in the game, dont need buffs.
Warden is a strong lvl 5/6 hero, but weak at lvl 1/2/3, my suggestion is +1 agi lvl 1, +1 agi lvl 2, +1 agi lvl 3 (i dont know if this is too much agi) and revert warden fok buffs (she is already strong at lvl 5).
UD
Nerubian tower dont need this change
Ghoul already one of the worst HP/attack units in the game, dont need this change
Curse and cripple dont need this change
Meat wagon already have DK aura
lich and web dont need this change
Frost wyrm, chimera, Abom, Tauren and other rarely used units could receive a small buff (not too much so as not to unbalance the game)
Naval Combat in RTS games unfortunately rarely works out well. It tends to snowball in favor of one player, and then the other player can’t make any comeback–A comeback would require Shipyards and a fleet, which they won’t have and won’t be able to build.
Having the “option” for naval combat would be nice, but it is very difficult to do properly outside of heavily scripted campaigns.
I have a few suggestions, which may seem ridiculous to many people, but I still bring them up
- Please increase the movement speed of the Evil Halo of the Death Knight and the Durable Halo of the Tauren Chieftain from the current 10%/15%/20% to the original 10%/20%/30% at each level.
The reason is as follows: Due to the overall movement speed of the undead and beast tribes being both medium and slow, in some battles (especially multiplayer battles, we should not only focus on 1V1), the collision volume and output environment of these units are usually very poor, especially in some narrow combat intersections. Increasing movement speed can make up for these shortcomings that existed in the game design from the beginning;
The reason why humans do not need to increase their movement speed is partly because their unit volume is generally small. Of course, I know this also has its drawbacks, which is that they are easily attacked by group skills, but that’s how everything has two sides. Secondly, the attack speed of ordinary units in the human race is medium and fast, and as the hero level increases, the group teleportation skill of the human Archmage becomes a divine skill, which was also the initial idea of the designer. - Please change the soul touch skill value of the Ten Victory Stones statue of the undead tribe back to the original 3 mana points.
The reason is as follows: Due to the lack of magic in most cases, the heroes and mage troops of the undead tribe lose their rightful value. In this case, effective magic recovery methods become particularly important. Losing 1 magic recovery point is very fatal, especially in T3 level battles. The human Archmage can usually stand there and continuously recover the magic points of the troops, while the statue must be constantly moved and operated effectively to recover the magic of surrounding units within an effective range. - Please increase the freezing time of Frost Worm to 5 seconds for heroes from the current 3 seconds
The reason is as follows: I know this is a unit that is criticized by most players, with its extremely low appearance rate. The previous time for heroes was 10 seconds, but it was later weakened, which is the fundamental reason. So extending it by 2 seconds is a suitable way to prevent it from completely becoming a garbage unit - Please change the Night Elf’s crossbow carriage to its original trajectory, which will focus 100% on the target
The reason is as follows: The crossbow carriage of the Night Elves has always been a siege weapon of the Night Elves, with different characteristics from the other three races. However, due to its low movement speed and attack power, it usually only appears in special situations. Therefore, it should have its own skill, which is to hit the target 100%. This will not make the crossbow carriage too powerful, and to some extent, it will increase its appearance rate. This is a good attempt. There should not be any worthless troops in this game, and every unit will have its nemesis, which makes the game more interesting
The above suggestions are all suggestions from a 20-year-old player. If Blizzard can adopt any suggestions that you think are reasonable, then I would be very honored
If you could, I would suggest using the official unit/ability names. Perhaps you’re getting your terms from a non-English version of the game?
As noted in the other thread, I’d be hesitant to buff any of the auras. these always-on effects can easily be too strong since they have no cost.
Point 2, I think you’re talking about the undead statues with the healing/mana recovery? These were previously nerfed, and are widely used, though mainly for the healing. Again I’d be hesitant to buff them in any way, however since the mana recovery is not used as often it might be worth looking at.
Point 3, I see frost wyrms used all the time, particularly in team games. I don’t think they need buffing in any way at all and definitely are not a “garbage unit.” They T3 units aimed at ending a game for those unprepared for them and they serve that role fine.
Point 4, the NE ballista is the only tier 1 siege unit, and its purpose is to destroy structures- The fact that it doesn’t have homing is meant to reinforce this. Also, making it homing would remove the ability to attack ground. So I can’t get behind this one.
Moon wells are stupidly strong. I’m not sure what the second part of the change means (less mana given? not sure) but 100% support reducing the regen rate. demon hunter can solo defend early assaults, combined with a detonation or two, usually scoring enough kills to be worth those detonates.
yeah that’d mean you can’t target them with spells while invulnerable. it doesn’t mean it dispels current effects.
Rune of speed should be nerfed to 10 seconds not 20, it is currently too strong.
Sea witch mana shield change is missing in the master changelog.
Meat Wagon speed increased from 220 to 235 ?
Frost Wyrm food reduced from 7 to 6 ?
Demolisher speed increased from 220 to 235 ?
Mortar Team speed increased from 270 to 275 ?
Glaive Thrower speed increased from 220 to 250(or 240) ?
Maybe * Moon Well Regeneration increased from 1.35 to 1.4
- Well Spring regeneration mana bonus reduced from 125 to 110
And why he should do that? Shouldn’t other players who think UD is OP should go play UD and show us how OP is? If UD was the strongest race it would have been the most played race, not the least, which is clear as day.
Every single people nowaday just play everything that is the strongest, most OP, most easy. This is a fact.
As far as your lie once again. You are changing the narrative once again. I already prove you wrong, as i even give a wiki example with all of the ShowCup where the players were playing reverse race, random, etc, which is the ultimate showcase of who the best player is. Happy lost none of the ShowCups, and there was like, 23+ ShowCups in this, so it’s not 5 or 6 matches, where the factor is luck or etc.
As far as 120 goes, he is losing every single match in the group stage to a lot lesser players than him in the last couple of months, so once again you have no idea what you are talking.
And 120 is one of the most talented players this game has ever seen. He is some time inconsistent, but when he is ON, skill and brain wise he is second only to Happy.
And seeing him lose to a lot of lesser players is brutal.
As far as Colorful goes, he can only carry water to 120, he is nowhere near his level in any department. Same for Lawliet and Kaho. Kaho has good micro, but he is so bad in so many other departments it’s into even funny.
As far as Happy losing to this or that guy. He lost to this or that guy playing UD as well, so what? Unless you give a specific example and with date times of the matches you claim he loses, your claim has zero weight on it, as you already been exposed to talk about thing you have no clue and then trying to change the narrative .
As far as Happy playing other race, once again Happy has said he doesn’t enjoy playing other race, and there is also a thing call style and perfecting your race and certain strats. Obviously he won’t be as good with other races, unless he start playing them constantly for extended period of time.
Still he beats every single PRO player with reverse race, random and with their own race.
The only player he didn’t beat in mirror with their own race(or at least i haven’t watch a match yet) is Lyn. But Lyn is the best mirror player, which is understandable.
He very rarely losing Orc mirrors. Still Happy was very close to beat him in mirror, and just the lack of knowing the race in a depth lost him that game.
Stop using 120 name. He is losing every single tournament in the group stage. He can’t get over the group stage for a very good amount of months now.
He is losing to million time worst players than him.
BTW 120 has one of the best micro by far. Maybe Happy prolly have better micro, no one else. He also has experimented a lot and is disgusted with recent changes and doesn’t have motivation to play and grind for hours.
It’s just Happy, who would prolly quite seeing the changes.
And what happen then, UD will be completely deleted. Absolutely no sense to play as UD.
Also stop crying for this Taurens, they have the highest damage of a land unit + 1300 HP. And their upgrade is insane. They don’t need a buff. Orc has Scroll of Speed, which gives you max speed, if you want to engage with them. TC also gives them huge speed boost.
Walkers can revive them for free literally as well.
They are situational units, just like every other super strong T3 units, like MG, Chims, Frost Wyrm(the most useless and garbage unit in the game).
They are already too strong, it’s up to the Orc players to find the best way to used them and in which situation.
Let’s not forget Orcs also have a huge multiple units Healing ability in SH, which make killing Taurens extremely hard.
Buffing them in any way(already too strong), will mean playing against Orc is impossible. It’s almost is, as the race is way too strong in literally everything.
He was in playoffs this week in WAL.
Also, the often quoted Showcup ended in July 2023 and shouldnt be used as a reference
Frenzy should not be touched, it will be strong of T2 i think. And if they decide it to nerf it, it will be garbage, and UD won’t have options. Ghouls are 340 glass canon unit that dies in 2 hit from lvl 3+ BM, and pretty much anything.
There is also million ways to counter them.
It’s just that Casters are trying to think of a way to nerf Happy, and make UD unplayable.
Abominations should have been buffed like 15+ years ago. They are garbage.
Fiends should get a buff too. UD doesn’t have options, unlike other races and multiple units to play, so nerfing one thing affect the race big time.
Ghouls should not be touched, unless they give UD new good units to use.
Also the nerf to Nova is next time idiotic, when UD has no disables, CC, etc. ZERO.