1.36.2.21146 PTR 3 Patch Notes

PTR Discussion and Bug Report
235

Come on now, CL needs a buff like 100 years ago, and it’s not a viable option at all. Only 120 used it in 1/100 games, and he often lose that game.
HeadHunters are the strongest unit in the game, with insane amount of high DMG. But this -1 damage is just pathetic. IT should have been at least -4 or 5 damage, not 1. Or nerf the HP, as it’s way too high for ranged unit.
They should receive a nerf to the research upgrade as Ghoul received, otherwise don’t touch the ghouls at all.

Taurens at T2 is terrible choice. They don’t need a buff or anything. Their stats are ridiculous, and trying to touch them it’s going to make them OP. It’s up to the players to understand how to use a certain strong units that are situational.

236

buff bm/dh, not a funny joke

1 Like
237

It’s not even 2 players, it’s just 1 - Happy. And he is miles above the rest. 120 is losing in the group stages since the last patches. And after this, he will prolly Quit. If i’m Happy i’m going to quit the game too. As his race is getting nerfed 100% undeservedly, cause he is miles better than the rest. Why should he suffer, cause other players are just not as him, and B2W are crying, cause money talks, and their supporters send them money to nerf UD, cause of Happy.

You can’t nerf Ghouls, but let Troll Berserker research time to 40 seconds, and make ghouls 60.
Also why the heck you are nerfing Nova? It’s the only UD crowd control option. You either give UD viable crowd control options or don’t touch Nova at all. They don’t have stomp, Storm Bolts, Claps, multiple Ensnare, Hex, Purge, etc.

They are essentially killing UD with this patch. Also you should never nerf something with 100% nerf, like they are hitting Banshee like this. You going to make it garbage.
The duration should be nerfed with 10-20 seconds, not with 100%+ the time.

238

This is clear, they are just listening to Grubby, Neo and Remo, and some streamers. They don’t give a **** about any of our feedback, so why even post this here Kaivax ???]

I have a better suggestion, just delete UD from the game. Neither do Orcs or Elf needed any buffs.

Also for how many years haven’t you understand that buffing 1 race, automatically mean that other races that are not getting buffed, are going to be worst vs that particular race. And when you nerf that race, and buff other, this is going to hit the nerfed race double or even triple, as you buffing other race, and nerfing that one.

What is this UD buff changes specifically, h ? Nerubian tower was a unique tower, why the heck you are giving it Piercing Attack, when Spirit Tower is doing Piercing attack? You need to buff the damage then, but that doesn’t make sense at all. You already nerfed the Nerubian Tower. UD have different workers, so they need strong base defense, as killing 1 acolyte is essentially equal to killing 3 or even 4 of other race workers. You can’t replace it with ghouls on the mine.

You have no f*** clue how the game work, and just listen to biased caster.

You either balance your game on your own, or you don’t touch it at all. You cannot come with 1 changes for PTR, and then comes with 109000 more, which are completely different and as everyone knows coming from few individual that are beyond biased.

7 Likes
239

I quit playing this game because this balance team won’t stop ruining the game. This patch is just icing on the cake. What’s even funnier is that this is back2warcrafts doing again. They’re so biased and oblivious it’s insane. Humans for years have left the game and nothing happens apparently human just get lamed to death and you guys are fine with it. Teir 3 buffs are stupid as hell. I’ve complained enough

But lmao if you give undead immediate t2 dispel and orc tauren at t2 I will have to go above and beyond to show my distaste and uninstall the game. Currently I log in to play customs with friends but enoughs enough. I can’t believe back2warcraft is so generally bad at everything and suggested this crap. I’m done arguing and trying to convince people how stupid this is. You guys are doing a really piss poor job

2 Likes
240

Don’t your team have any brains? Why haven’t you developed the ability to change the keys for hero skills and item slots? Go out and see if any other game doesn’t have the ability to change the keys for native skills. Don’t tell me that there is already a function to change the keys. How troublesome is it to use a txt file? Can you change the keys for hero item slots on the platform without conflicting with other unit skill keys? Can you develop games with brains!

241

yeah that’s definitely the best way to get what you want

242

I dont know if is a bug or not but when a hero is slowed from nerubian tower or frost nova the invunerabilty potion doesnt stop the slow when the item description tell : An invulnerable Hero may not be the target of spells or effects

243

No, you’re just an inattentive person. Spell out my original message BY LETTERS:

“2)he played 3 games and lost all 3, when played not his race vs opps on his. Although it means nothing.”
Now where in the world i wrote something about his results in swap races? I know perfectly, that he won almost every Show Cup, bc he is best player in a history ffs! I told this many times, so im absolutely no hater of him. The only thing, which could prove that all of this is just skill issue and balance is fine, would be if he play weak race in disbalanced matchup vs opp playing his race. On a decent sample size. Best example would be him playing 50 games on NE vs 120`s UD. I’m waiting for you to evaluate his wr in that situation.

245

Small correction:
Naga’s Mana Shield change is missing in the master changelog

246

How about just keeping Taurons in tier 3 and buffing them instead of making them tier 2 and nerfing them to compensate? It’s a baffling change, why should Orc be the only race without tier 3 units? They have plenty of tier 2 options already, why would you actively remove incentive to go tier 3?

Feels too often like the balance teams are just trying to shake up competetive play without taking actual game design into consideration.

2 Likes
247

Too many changes at once, you turbo buff NE with moonwells AND hero buff, meanwhile nerf UD/HU to death. Only cause you see Happy winning doesnt mean the race is too strong, he is just superior. No other undead comes close.

Back2Warcraft just watching Happy every week and obviously biased. You destroy this game for casual players.

4 Likes
248

Hi all. Firstly I want to say thanks to developers, because the game is still updating. I don’t say this current patch is good or bad, but at least we have the hope that the game can be better in future. Tiny hope but it’s more than nothing. Secondly I should say that I’m a low mmr player, so I have no qualification and no right to rate last changes in details.

But I can say something else. Let’s imagine the situation in WC3 in another universe. There are no Happy and 120. But there is high class proplayer John Doe that plays on NE or HU, whatever. He wins almost every tournament, he works hard and his skill is better than every other player. And the structure of community is different: the most popular race is UD and the fans of this fraction have great influence. They always claim that John Doe’s fraction is OP, imbalance and needs nerfs.

So what we have in that universe in patch 1.47.3. In case of John Doe is Hum player: ability of powerbuilding needs upgrade on T3, no fast expands and buildings before; militia also is considered as OP, so you can use it only on T2 and also after upgrade; no clarity in shop, no staff of sanctuary - cause it’s also imbalance; and ofcourse Brilliance Aura - regens 1 point on level 3. In case of John Doe is NE: also no clarity and staff of preservation in shop; NE trees can’t move, it is considered as OP; moon wells have only 200 mana and they can be used only after T3 upgrade - before they only give 10 limit of food, and regens 0.85 mana per second; and so on.

From the other side, what we have in another universe with UD. Community always states that this race is the weakest and needs buffs. So there are clarity, wand of negation and scroll of healing in shop; also you have on T3 staff of sanctuary or perhaps instant haunted goldmine (choose what you want). Ghouls have 460 hp and community demands increase it to 485 hp. Aboms have ability to deal siege damage when they pick up corpses from battlefield. Frost wyrms have big attack speed and range, and their upgrade gives ability to deal siege damage or perhaps freezes huge area, not only 1 building (choose what you want). Frost nova has additional damage to summoned units. Obsidian Statue restores 5 mana with 6 targets; or even it has aura effect, no limit of targets but regens 3 mana to every friendly unit (choose what you want). And in the last patch in that universe UD receive ability to build not only on blight. On blight all the same, no nerfs. But now you can build everywhere by the cost of acolyte’s life, similar to NE wisp.

Sounds weird, right?)

4 Likes
249

I completely agree with your views and opinions. This is very objective. In fact, most of the changes in balance parameters are determined by professional UD players such as Happy and 120’s powerful operational skills. Therefore, I still hope that Blizzard can see how to change UD parameters from more UD player data

2 Likes
250

I think it would be cool if Blizzard would do something with boats? anyone else?

1 Like
251

Feedback from INFI on KOTG “it will cost KOTG 170 mana to summon 4 force of natures, whereas it will cost Firelord 150 for one lava spawn. If blizzard balance staffs knew anything about data, they would not do this SHIIIIT”

3 Likes
252

I feel like a good change would be for NElf Sentinel to have a cooldown instead of being limited to only 1 charge, as the race’s ONLY (racial specific) way to reveal invisible units, without committing to a specific hero and leveling a specific ability.
Humans have Mortar Teams and Towers (each with 3min cd on their reveal, and towers passively revealing around themselves), and Flying Machines.
Orcs have Witch Doctors with Sentry Wards - 50 mana cost and 10min duration. And they have Far Seer’s Far Sight, but I wouldn’t count this, as it requires a hero + skill point commitment (although Orcs very often do pick Far Seer).
Undead has Shades which are permanent and mobile.
Elfs have the owl scout, which you can’t just get on demand, as you may have picked different heroes (which locks you out of this option). And they have Sentinel, which has a single charge, requires a tree (can only be placed at certain locations), is visible for the enemies (and they can destroy the tree) and lasts for just 5 minutes, even if the tree isn’t destroyed.

The other races are just A LOT more cost efficient with their reveals, as they can be just a one-time-investment. While NElf needs to keep producing “fresh” huntresses. Or they can be buying dusts or using laboratories, which also cost gold. A hero + skill point seems too big of a commitment.

1 Like
253

I appreciate the new patch, thank you for your efforts and creativity! I think we all know that Taurens at T2 isn’t viable and also leaves Orc without any T3 units.

My suggestion is add resistant skin buff for Taurens at T3.

1 Like
254

I think this makes Sundering Blades useless. Compared to a blacksmith upgrade it only buffs knights and only against one armor type. And it also is upgraded from the Barracks which you would rather train knights. There is no other unit specific upgrade which is worse than general upgrades.

255

Thanks for these changes.

However, I believe this particular adjustment just disrupt a longstanding numerical balance critical to the game’s strategic depth. I really hope someone in the balance team can see this and modify Troll Headhunter in other way.

Here are average damages for each level of the Troll Headhunter.

|No Upgrade | Level 1 Attack Upgrade | Level 2 Attack Upgrade | Level 3 Attack Upgrade|
|25 | 28 | 31 | 34

The connections between these values may not be very obvious, but they are actually very concise and logical.

28/25=1.12
31/25=1.24
34/25=1.36

Each time the Troll Headhunter upgrades its attack, its average damage will increase precisely by 12% compared to the Troll Headhunter without upgrades.

This is not coincidence.
For each defense upgrade, unit gets 2 armor bonus. According to the Armor formulae, unit effective hit points would increase 12% for 2 armor bonus.
12% average damage increasing is corresponding to the 12% effective hit points increase in armor reduction for each defense upgrade.

Also, this mathematical correlation is not only happening on Troll Headhunter.
Rifle, Crypt Fiend follow the same rule. Although not necessarily an exact 12%, after rounding, it will be 12%, 24%, or 36%.

Except Rifle, Crypt Fiend these similar units, Mortar Team, Demolisher, Meat Wagon, Gryphon, Chimaera also follow this rule.
I believe this mathematical correlation is an underlying principle of Warcraft3. All ranged units that primarily provide firepower output but lack functionality or skill adhere to this design approach.

If Troll Headhunter base damage reduced from 22 to 21, which means that the average attack after Level 3 Attack Upgrade will be 33.
33/24=1.375, the rule is broken.

Not to mention that the impact on balance is completely questionable.
Troll Headhunter is fine in the early game but it is to strong in the middle and late stages of the game.
Troll Headhunter shall be Nerf in the middle and late stages not in early stage. This adjustment will not achieve this goal.

I do hope someone can see this.
If you want to achieve this goal, here is a recommendation based on the mathematical correlation.

The suggestion is making reference to the passive skills of the Archer, Elune’s Grace. Instead of reducing the damage taken from specific damage type, increase the damage taken from some damage types.

By making reference of Elune’s Grace, Troll Berserker can be added a negative passive skill, which increasing the damage taken from Piercing, Spell and Hero attacks by 20%.

Since there is no directly HP reduce, Troll Berserker against the Attack type units like Knight or Ghoul will not be directly impact.
However this is more conducive to using high-level heroes to counter the trolls, rather than letting a large number of trolls become too dominant in the late game.

The follow is why and how this value comes from.

For Rifleman, Troll Headhunter(Berserker), Crypt Fiend and Archer, these units belong to the same type of range unit. They have the same attack type, armor type, initial armor value, and movement speed, so they can be compared with each other.

when there is full tech upgrade

|Unit------------------ |Range| HP | DPS(Avg Damage/Attack Cooldown)|
|Rifleman------------|600 | 535 | 28.5/1.35=21.11|
|Crypt Fiend--------| 550| 550 | 39/2=19.5|
|Troll Berserker—| 550| 475| 34/2.31= 14.72|
|Troll Berserker( Berserk)| 550| 339.29| 34/(2.31/1.5)= 22.08|
|Archer---------------| 700| 255 |27/1.5= 18|

Consider they are in different food supply, HP and DPS shall be converted into 1 food supply to do the comparation. So it shall be like this.

|Unit------------------ |Range| HP/Food | DPS/Food|
|Rifleman------------|600 | 178.33 | 7.037|
|Crypt Fiend--------| 550|183.33 | 6.500|
|Troll Berserker—| 550| 237.50| 7.359|
|Troll Berserker( Berserk)| 550| 169.64| 11.039|
|Archer---------------| 700|127.50 |9.000|

Since these values are independent to each other, these values can be multiplied together to form a rough model of the unit’s combat effectiveness.

|Unit------------------ |Range| HP/Food | DPS/Food| Multiplying Result
|Rifleman------------|600 | 178.33 | 7.037| 752944.926
|Crypt Fiend--------| 550|183.33 | 6.500| 655416.667
|Troll Berserker—| 550| 237.50| 7.359| 961309.524
|Troll Berserker( Berserk)| 550| 169.64| 11.039| 1029931.47
|Archer---------------| 700|127.50 |9.000|803250

The Multiplying Result matches the strength of each unit in the later stages. Troll Berserker is the strongest, followed by Archer, and Crypt Fiend is final.

However, Troll Berserker‘s value exceeds the average of 4 units too much, which is why it is too strong in the later stage.

In the 1.26 version, the value of each units are closer to the average value.

|1.26 Unit -----------|Range| HP/Food | DPS/Food| Multiplying Result
|Rifleman------------|600 | 178.33 | 6.333| 677666.667
|Crypt Fiend--------| 550|183.33 | 6.500| 655416.667
|Troll Berserker—| 450| 225| 7.359| 745129.870
|Troll Berserker( Berserk)| 450| 150| 11.039| 745129.870
|Archer---------------| 700|122.50 |8.667|743166.667

So my suggestion is to adjust the Multiplying Result of the Troll Berserker in the model mentioned above so that it does not deviate too much from the average.

If we assume that the Archer receives all damage with equal probability, by the influence of Elune’s Grace, Archer effective HP percentage can be considered as

150%( Normal)+75%( Piercing)+50%( Siege)+75%( Magic)+100%( Hero)+100%( Chaos)+100%( Spell)
/
150%( Normal)+75%*65%( Piercing)+50%( Siege)+75%*80%( Magic)+100%( Hero)+100%( Chaos)+100%*80%( Spell)
=110.4%

Based on this percentage, current values will be adjusted to
|Unit------------------ |Range| HP/Food | DPS/Food| Multiplying Result
|Rifleman------------|600 | 178.33 | 7.037| 752944.926
|Crypt Fiend--------| 550|183.33 | 6.500| 655416.667
|Troll Berserker—| 550| 237.50| 7.359| 961309.524
|Troll Berserker( Berserk)| 550| 169.64| 11.039| 1029931.47
|Archer (adjusted)| 700|140.25 |9.000|883575

and 1.26 version values will be adjusted to

|1.26 Unit -----------|Range| HP/Food | DPS/Food| Multiplying Result
|Rifleman------------|600 | 178.33 | 6.333| 677666.667
|Crypt Fiend--------| 550|183.33 | 6.500| 655416.667
|Troll Berserker—| 450| 225| 7.359| 745129.870
|Troll Berserker( Berserk)| 450| 150| 11.039| 745129.870
|Archer (adjusted)|700|134.75 |8.667|817483.333

Troll Berserker’s Multiplying Result can be adjust to about 900000, which is closer to Archer adjusted Multiplying Result.
If increasing the damage which Troll Berserker taken from Piercing, Spells and Hero attacks by 20%, the effective HP percentage can be considered as

150%( Normal)+75%( Piercing)+50%( Siege)+75%( Magic)+100%( Hero)+100%( Chaos)+100%( Spell)
/
150%( Normal)+75%*120%( Piercing)+50%( Siege)+75%( Magic)+120%( Hero)+100%( Chaos)+120%( Spell)
=92.20%.

the Multiplying Result would be adjusted to

|Troll Berserker—| 550| 218.77| 7.359| 886327.381
|Troll Berserker( Berserk)| 550| 156.41| 11.039| 949596.815

And 475*80%=380, it is still greater than 375, the HP of Troll Headhunter

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