Defend against Lockdown?

Hello all, I just recently got back into playing Brood War, and have noticed an annoying trend when facing off against the AI using Terrans
I tend to try to push to heavy air for Prot, but this is relentlessly useless as the AI seems to build an endless supply of Ghosts, who immediately Lockdown my whole fleet at the beginning of every battle.
I am disturbed by this because I am well aware that the AI Blizzard came up with for SC 1, is terribly broken, but is there a way to defend against this, or do I just have to accept that I will lose 10 Carriers in every attack because of Ghosts?? All the while, they are using the Ghosts to drop Nukes on my base and expansions the entire game, making it near impossible to have any resources. Every 2 minutes or so, I hear ‘Nuclear Launch Detected’, which inevitably wipes out half of one of my bases…
So my question is this, is there a tried and true defense against Ghosts, and if so will it be effective?? Because they almost seem to be unbeatable, and Blizz seems to be addicted to them in custom games…
In any case, please explain / advise, and Thanks in advance!!

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you are dealing againsta specific type of custom map that has scripts specifically made to nuke you.
It’s the map designer’s fault, for making that custom map unbeatable not the game.

In my Single Player Games, I make use of Arbiters. One Arbiter per Carrier. I also use Observers. One Observer per Arbiter and one Observer per Carrier.

These modifications allow me to see cloaked units, AND the Arbiters cloak all the Carriers. The Ghosts would then need to Lock Down ALL the Arbiters BEFORE they could Lock Down the Carriers. While this is an EXPENSIVE way to help protect a Carrier Fleet, I HIGHLY recommend it. You should see FEWER Carrier Lockdowns at that point, AND SHOULD be able to kill off the Ghosts.

HOWEVER; I DON’T play Online, and therefore DON’T know if anyone else has done this. Also, when going in against Terran Bases, you MUST have your Fleet destroy ANY and ALL Missile Turrets, AND Science Vessels to assist in having the Arbiters keep your Fleet cloaked.

I hope this is useful to you.

ymmv

TimeLord04

_TimeLord0_4,
Thanks for the suggestions, but my problem with that is that the AI seems to build very quickly, and has an enormous army ready very early, as well as that they seem to keep building the army back almost instantly, after losing a battle…
I am almost ready to think that they are not having to worry about resources at all, much like I have been told that they are not subject to the Fog of War problem, and can see everything on the map, including stealthed units. On top of this, they seem to expand almost immediately upon the game starting, with no concern of being attacked, which also seems to suggest that they are perfectly aware of all nooks and crannies of the maps, without needing to scout first. By the time I can get over to them to rush, they already have 2 expansions running, which is ludicrous honestly…
On that note, I remember watching replays in WC3, where the AI did not even scout before moving their entire force directly to my expansions…
Elsewise, getting Arbiters up IS an expense that sounds more reasonable if they did not immediately know when I expand, and head directly at it, meaning I cannot stockpile enough resources to properly build the army I would like, before they rush in and destroy the expo before it is even up and running…
I WISH that I had the benefit of not having to wait for crystals / gas to build everything, but that seems to be a Blizzard boon solely…
A friend told me that the AI gets all units for 1/3 price, and that they build twice as fast, which would explain a lot of the things I have seen. That would be NICE truly, but as a lowly player, I am constrained by the rules of the game.
So, again thanks for the response, but it is not truly an option, and I was actually looking for a good defense against this tactic of massing Ghosts!!

You have to think outside of the box…

Starcraft is a game that has been played for several years, and at this point there are several answers to your question. I am going to try to answer it the best way possible ok?, in order of importance. First of all understand that the answer to your question is not necessarily a unit, or a give “counter-ability” but a set of thing you can do to improve your game.

This advices are:

1) Watch professional games to get an idea on how to play the game, specially those that are First Person videos where you see how the PRO player moves and click stuff.

2) Build workers and expand as much as you can. When we are learning to play we sometimes concentrate too much on the size of the army without realizing that a bigger economy give us: a bigger army quicker and enough economy to have an army back in case you lose it

3) Try to play online, not against computers. Try to play official maps, not old maps that are unbalanced.

4) Learn what are Macro and Micro in RTS. Macro is the ability to make bases and manage tech trees,., expanding and doing build orders on the clock. Micro is the ability of managing units like a pro, for instance are you capable of killing a zelot with only one marine?.

Now some advices to you particular situation against ghosts:

1) If you are using carriers learn the trick where you shoot a building and and make interceptors fly outside of the carriers, so when you shoot they are already out, that way you can hit ghost quicker if you happen to catch them.

2) Always shoot with carriers then move back, a real player that knows howto use carriers never just clicks and waits for this to happen, you have to move around, back and forth, and then again, Starcraft is a game of agility and it requires a fair amount of clicks per minutes, it is definitively not a game for lazy people.

3) The AI is very dumb, combine ground attacks with carrier atacks, that way the AI wont have a realistic way to split units and you will break it on any of those fronts, if you only attack with carriers and nothing more there is a big chance the attack will fail.

4) You can cloack the carriers with an arbiter…

So just a few last words, this is not a strategy game where building unit A kills unit B. Starcraft is a game where as i told you above clicking is important, ditch the idea that you can be any good in this game by being slow.

Watch this video as it was my first advice:

https://youtu.be/1MSv-CMX2zY?t=39

It will give you an idea of how you should be playing, and how fast and accurate… is not vs Terran but if you like that video i am sure you can find one yourself.

Good luck and jump to online ASAP.

AI can’t see everything on the map. They know the rough positions of enemy units and structures but they do need detection for hidden units and they need active vision of a target to cast spells. e.g. if your dragoon sits in the fog of war, a ghost will never try to lock it down, but if it attacks a marine, the ghost will then be given the order since the AI can see the dragoon and the dragoon is attacking its own units.

Just build zeal/ht/archon and storm their main armies. Ghosts can’t use lockdown on biological targets. If you have at least 2.5 probes per mineral field you shouldn’t have issues getting enough money to spam zealots. 8-12 gateways depending on number of mining bases, use cameral controls to easily rally, and get accustomed to pressing that Z key.

If that’s just the normal BW AI on a normal map (not UMS), then beating it is easy if you learn how to play a bit. Ghosts are laughably useless and weak. Just make a ground army if the computer makes ghosts, and roll him over.

Watch some games of good players playing, and you’ll get the idea of what to generally do.

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The100YOU,
I have actually managed to get this somewhat handled honestly, using Arbiters to cloak my fleet, although they still do manage to Lockdown a few of my Carriers, during the fight, but not as many, which is helpful to win…
I do not intend to try and watch professional players to learn as I am not into stealing other people’s strats, but I do want to be able to learn my own, and cannot for the life of me understand why Blizzard decided to make the AI so brutal truly.
I AM doing the best I can to expand quickly, but even getting the nearest expos to me, the AI seems ot still manage to get the majority of the expansion spots on every map. Also, I am not a lazy player, and do not expect to just attack move my way through the games, but even if you are aggressive, and attack intelligently, the AI seems to be ready for whatever you throw at them, and they follow up every battle with a MASSIVE attack on your bases.
Another thing I have noticed is that whenever I am playing other races besides Terran, there is almost always a huge heavy air buildup that can be very difficult to handle, being massed up by the enemy.
I did take a look at your linked video, but as I said, I am not wishing to emulate other players, just get my own thing going. I am well aware that Koreans are SC masters, but that is not really helpful to me, as I am trying to get myself good, and the AI that was included with the game is so ridiculous that you cannot try to learn different strategies, and you end up being FORCED to do just what will allow you to win, which is no fun at all…
I thought a Game was supposed to be fun, and not a job, but perhaps I am mistaken, and should find a different game that is not made by demons to be impossible to enjoy!!

I understand what you are saying and as a matter of fact you are correct. I mean about this:

But hear me out for a second, i think it was 2015 or so when i tried to play DOTA and LOL, i noticed something, there was nice music, environments, a lot of colors and shining, and people talking to me over microphone.

What am i saying this to you?, so you figure a big difference between lets call them “main media games” and “Starcraft Remastered”, and that is this game is about an old now seameslly forgotten concept in gaming: HAVING FUN IS SECONDARY TO SELF IMPROVEMENT

Starcraft Remastered, that is Broodwar of course, is more of a martial art sort to say, and this “new media games” are more like a “laser quest” at any amusement park. Not saying those games are bad, they are far from it, there is a reason why so many people watch them, is just that you must understand that there is a different philosophy behind: You are not playing Starcraft Broodwar only to get fun, you are playing because you want to be better at it.

Now thats out of the way and i am sure you understood me let me tell you a few other things, first, i am turning 32 this year and i have been playing Starcraft since almost the week that it was launched, i almost remember it like it was yesterday, i was playing warcraft II and finishing the campaign for the second of third time, but this time my Mother bought me the Warcraft II Guide and i was following to learn how to beat the missions, i remember that my friend lend me “behind the portal” which was a Warcraft II expansion but it was on Playstation 1 (way too hard for me). The point is my mom called me from Chicago and told me over the phone “There is a new warcraft in space” and i knew because i watched the trailer and i was so happy !!, “mom buy me that please i swear i will give you good grades… etc”.

Why am i telling you this, once i installed Starcraft and started playing my previous experience with Warcraft II helped a bit, but it was HARD, and when i read you are having problems with the AI i laugh at my self because i remember that i HATED how Blizzard made everything so different and hard.

I ditched the game.

One or two year latter or so i was playing Counter Strike with my friends and then i saw it, 2 people playing Starcraft over LAN (I know how to play that game i am going to beat this guys easy), i couldn’t understand how they could have twice the army i had in the same time, the things they did etc…

After that game i asked that guy how he was able to win me, he was not a really nice guy (he was called Johannes and he was from Germany), to make the story short i thought him how to play counter strike, you know small tricks here and there, and then he told me his tricks and they where pretty much basic:

_“I started getting better by winning the campaign over and over again, in east Europe this game is getting huge, people there have super powers in this game, i am nothing compared to them, i was such a noob but they allowed me to play team games with them, they told me to NEVER STOP PRODUCING WORKERS, and always keeping MY MONEY DOWN

Those concepts as dumb as they might look are the key for this game. Honestly? if you are playing Starcraft and you are not making workers, and your money is over 400 regularly… then you are not giving your best and you are really not playing the game.

And really, i started applying those concepts into the game and campaign and the game caught me up to this day.

So i hope this gets to you somehow. Starcraft Remastered is a Martial Art, you can go around into a fight with only strength, or you can into a fight with expertise and trained knowledge and discipline: Is up to you.

Once you start playing seriously by keeping in mind that you have to click a lot and do a LOT of stuff at the same time you will understand the game better.

I gave you the video in the hopes that you would get inspired and somehow of an idea of how many clicks a Korean player do. Interesting fact… Korean click keyboard and mouse just to stay in Rhythm, they spam a lot… just to keep their brain doing stuff. Most clicks are meaningless and the player would achieve the same by avoiding them.

So that is as much as i can tell you. Sorry for calling you lazy, but you must learn the game by being humble and understanding this game is about self improvement and not necessarily “healthy good safe fun”.

Hope it works philosophically speaking which is exactly what you need now. Your ghost problem is just a drop in the ocean that is Starcraft Remastered, trust me, as someone of a higher level than you in this game i can tell you is worth it 100%, but be humble. Cheers.

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I get your points here, but I did not buy this game to be humble, and try to better myself honestly, I just wanted a fun game to dump some hours into, and hopefully get better at, and this does not seem to be that, so I maintain that I will likely be ‘ditching the game’, as you put it, until there is a reasonable version that can be an enjoyable experience, and not a chore of self-improvement…
I did not get the game so that I could start to better myself, but to have something to play, and I do not think you understand the meaning of that word truly - play- it means to have fun doing something, not slaving away at becoming proficient.
I coach a Bantum basketball team, at my local community center, and those boys do not play to become better / more well rounded human beings, they play to have fun, and that is what I wanted with SC, but did not get!!

If you are not having fun then probably the game is not for you, again, there is nothing more fun than self improvement itself.

Slaving is a state of mind, nobody is obliging you to play Starcraft Broodwar which in hand proves that you are not being “slaved”. But you can learn much from doing stuff that are different from what you consider fun.

Do you like playing chess?, is such a simple game, but the point remains that chess is going to be in life always, around you, maybe one day you will meet a girl that REALLY likes playing chess and is all worth it at the end. Starcraft Broodwar is somehow the same, but here is where we differ you see… for me Broodwar is not just a game, is something i have been doing for years, it has been with me forever.

RTS gamers have been with me forever, since Command and Conquer and Red Alert, to Age of Empires. That is what i mean with it no being necessarily “fun”. Playing Starcraft for me is more a cathartic experience than anything else, this is not just “A Game”, this is part of my life, my personality, of what and who I AM.

That is what i was trying to tell you.

It will be impossible to explain what this game means to someone that plays it after so many years, or sees the ASL or KSL tournaments, or likes watching pro streams at AfreecaTV or Twitch.

You are welcome to stay and play this awesome game, but remember, THIS IS A DOJO, and the first set of rules are: GET YOUR BRAIN ON THE RIGHT PLACE.

Good luck, Starcraft will ALWAYS be with you (like the chess example), You will keep installing it through out the years, games are like that, good games that is, they keep appearing in your life and never really leave you… so better get good at it quick.

Somewhat getting what it is you are saying, I still maintain that a GAME, should be something that is fun, and not a second job, or a class you are having to take, otherwise it is not truly a game, but a chore…
I have found that the insanely overpowered AI in Brood War is prohibitive to having a good time while playing, and cannot for the life of me get why they decided to make an AI that even GOD could not beat…
For the record, no I do not enjoy Chess either, mainly because it is too annoyingly strategic, and has a limited fun factor for me at least, and I am not looking for a new skill-set that will stay with me for life, but just a game to enjoy…
In any case, I have decided to look elsewhere for a fun game, and will be no longer involved with SC, which is a shame really, because I do like the game, at least the campaign part, but the custom gaming part is ridiculous…
From watching the replays, I have seen that the AI expands almost immediately, after building maybe 4 gatherers, but I try this, and they immediately swarm my expansion with so many units that I cannot believe they have built so much that fast. Not to mention the fact that they automatically know if I expanded, without needing to scout me out, which is blatant cheating!!

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You should probably try some of those “laser quest games” you will have more fun then.

Good luck.

Just dont use carriers against Ghost …

Lockdown is an offensive spell cast by the [Terran], which shorts out the target’s circuitry, rendering it immobile for 60 seconds. During this time the unit can be attacked, repaired and destroyed, but it cannot return fire, move, or respond to any orders. Lockdown can only be cast on mechanical units …
DOnt use mechanical units against them or kill them,stasis them …

Lol, this is no Dojo, this is fuccking hell XDDD
And iam Satan training to kick all others Races butt, Hail Hydra ! XDD
Zergs overall !!!

Lol, I hated lol after my 105 game or so …
So toxic and full of egomaniacs and selfillusion

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Toxic is good, Toxic is life. If you are not toxic you are doing it wrong.

You want to know why you lose all the time?
Well CArriers are the most or one of the most expensive units in the V game not only by minerals and Gas also by V time and you cant just go over to kill them … you need to use the V Terrain … IF not Doom
Of Course the computer will kill if you stay 25 minutes to 40 minutes doing nothing, of course it will take all the bases lol …
I even think the hole Broodwar campaign is by far more difficult than to play against 2 computers at the same time. The thing is you cant just play like in the campaign you actually need to contain and harass, if not it just expances or kills you because you dont know when it comes with a bunch of units …
make a zealot or whatever and go harrass or put it in the entrance to see when the computer comes to attack so you are prepared… Make some defences, have some units to defend … specially ground units …
Zealot is the strongest first tier unit in the game by far …

I can understand your frustration, but dont be desentusastic by these cultfollowers who cant see the perspective of just an intrested person, they make all this fuss because Starcraft is art, religion, sport, love, and many other things …
Just do the things i told you and you win … and Actually learn why you lost ,…

Buhh, lol This game is fun you just are not enjoying it because your bad in it …
IT is like football you cant enjoy it if cant kick the ball … IT is that easy …
The guys gave you answer for the problem i also did, the thing is Starcraft RM needs more players and these people want to make you a regular, it seems you you are just a player who doesnt want to compete with other on the ladder, etc.
And that is ok,… Dont mind them .

Your argument about “it is not a game” is just wrong…
This game is fun, why the hell did you play it otherwise ?
I can understand you words after what those fanatics told you, but your words about STarcraft not being a game is just bjjjullsaaahit …
You own argumments dont make sense in that regard …
Lol, you are the problem in your own formula …
Your arguing that you only can have fun, if you beat the INsane AI or whatever, that is just not the case. I know this society has told such a non sense but it is just stupid.
YOur God AI was f beaten by a thousands or millions of bunch, only because you lack the skill to do so doesnt make it a bad game or a god ai …
IT seems you are really full of yourself to be totally honest, bordering at the “egomania”, lol … Though i give you a free pass because i think you are overdramaticing all this and really frustrated
Lol, and you Chess argumment, same …
Lol
WHat is your V. problem let the people the game they want, why the hell do you have to win to have fun?
Ask yourself that …
The beauty of Chess is just to overhead your brain with possibilities and choose one and hope you saw the right one…

I just dont get your point in all this …
Just v. Wall of your entrance there is no other big magig lol …
You dont want to be swarmed just close you entrance with some building and cannon behind … No magig there …

YOu know why the v. AI is cheating ? I tell you because it fv. SUCKSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
it only works good in the early minutes than it just does non sense…
You want to win so badly ?

just v. attack the workers in the 1-3 minute with one of your workers and escape whereever you want on the map, they will follow with all their workers and you win time … If you are to bad or slow for the AI just do that and you should get enought time …
You dont like Ghost …
YOu know that Terran need to get to end of his tech tree + a bunch of buildings to build them … So basicly the moment he attack with nukes and ghost you know he has most of his technology …
you want to be faster …?
Just v. use Hotkeys and ctrl-groups + Screensave locations …
In the starcraft menu you can look it up any time under Menu- hotkey and keys or something like …
you know that you can build and if you press shift- on minerals or gas before the worker arrives to begin building , it will go to mine gas or minerals automaticly after finishing building building …

With shift you can make units do many things after certain actions automaticly… in quere…
Carriers are extreme expensive and need extremly long to build… Do something else …
lol you can even just build a f pylon and than a cannon in the enemy base ( dont forget a forge before … you need the forge to build cannons …)
you can just Gaterush him …
just V. early scout and build a pylon in the near of his base than GAtway…
you can mass scout him … some micro, but not much …
you can build a second base than go for mass zealots … 6- 12 Gateways …
you can just drop with some templars in his base and kill all his workers …multiple times …
Reaver drop …
Zealot drop…
You can just go for Dark templars and kill them al…
You want to know why you lose all the time?
Well CArriers are the most or one of the most expensive units in the V. game not only by minerals and Gas also by v. time and you cant just go over to kill them … you need to use the f Terrain … IF not Doom
Of Course the computer will kill if you stay 25 minutes to 40 minutes doing nothing, of course it will take all the bases lol …
I even think the hole Broodwar campaign is by far more difficult than to play against 2 computers at the same time. The thing is you cant just play like in the campaign you actually need to contain and harass, if not it just expances or kills you because you dont know when it comes with a bunch of units …
make a zealot or whatever and go harrass or put it in the entrance to see when the computer comes to attack so you are prepared… Make some defences, have some units to defend … specially ground units …
Zealot is the strongest first tier unit in the game by far …

I can understand your frustration, but dont be desentusastic by these cultfollowers who cant see the perspective of just an intrested person, they make all this fuss because Starcraft is art, religion, sport, love, and many other things …
Just do the things i told you and you win … and Actually learn why you lost ,…

Yep your words hurt so sorry about the rant…
Also i hate that you cant say f and s.
IT took basicly more time to take out the f than write this non sense

BLizzard next thread why the hell cant i say shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh and Fu ? IT took me ovver 20 minutes to find them lol

Damn, i endorse Leonix such a nice guy.