Exactly he even posted several links to his Slammer account where he streams on twitch doing dumb 1 base zerg cheeses and all-ins. Slammer and tehbatz are 100% the same person.
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Even on this point, you actually have a decently large window for inject cycles, since they can be queued. Once you have some extra queens and have queued injects, you have ~1 minute per inject cycle for Zerg, with the latter half of that window being forgiven if you inject early. Timing doesn’t have to be perfect, which significantly reduces the actual difficulty of the process. Back in WoL/HoTS, before queuing, injecting was a lot more difficult.
By contrast, Warpgate cycles for Protoss have no leeway window (Every second missed after the CD completes = lost production time), so Protoss needs to over-make warpgates to compensate.
Similarly, Chrono is on ~20s cycles to keep up with, again with no leeway window if you want to get your upgrades/etc… out in minimum time - that’s much more difficult than injecting, albeit generally less important (Though there’s something to be said about injecting losing its importance as the game progresses and you have more hatcheries to support production. Making some macro hatches is definitely a thing to do when it can be afforded just to reduce the need for injects in the late game).
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Since we are using this thread as a lesson on dealing with cyber bullies, Terranic is not a kelthar alt account because he’s willing to express a different opinion which displays his individuality. Troll accounts operated by cyber bullies march in lockstep – they have strange opinions & they mirror those opinions across all their accounts. Notice how they are all obsessed with “tehbatz” when nobody else could care less. It’s a strange opinion that is mirrored identically across eliwan, kelthar, abs, and a few others.
You forget that I remember who this guy was, too. I posted back then as well under a troll account that was inspired by solidsnake. Solidsnake was one of my favorite posters. Batz hated solidsnake and had a profound anti-terran bias and hated the tvz matchup. The last time he posted, which was years ago at this point, he was constantly losing his mind that terran had won the gsl. ZvT is my best matchup because I used to main terran & it’s my favorite matchup to play as zerg. I openly say on stream that zerg is a “little too good” vs terran and I applauded Clem for beating Serral, even calling serral a “clown.”
You, mr kelthar, have a very unhealthy obsession with a guy who hasn’t posted on the bnet forums in years. We can actually check. No “tehbatz” has posted on the forums in 5 years.
Here he is fighting bournekilla. Bournekilla is one of my favorite posters, lmao:
Here he is hating on terran:
TvT is my favorite matchup, by the way. He hates TvT. You can see it with your own eyes for crying out loud.
And I thought he did long posts. I mean, that’s what Eliwan said he did. But I am sitting here, looking at his post history, and they are all short kelthar style troll comments. What a coincidence, eh. The kelthar troll accounts who are obsessed with tehbatz have identical posting styles to tehbatz. What are the odds. Hmmm. I wonder what’s going on! What could it possibly be! It’s a mystery! We just don’t know. There is no way we could possibly figure it out.
There are enormous differences in personality here my dudes. Kelthar alt accounts on the other hand march in lock step and do very similar styles of short, sarcastic troll comments meant to start flame wars. Kelthar is tehbatz. He’s obsessed with the guy. He is constantly bringing him up. I couldn’t care less. This pattern is so obvious you could see it from outer space.
Oh another thing he was famous for was upvotting himself on alt accounts. That’s what Kelthar’s been doing. It’s just too obvious. Every account that displays this bizarre obsession with “tehbatz” is also upvoting kelthar. He’s got +5 on a comment earlier in the thread – a comment which is stylistically indistinguishable from tehbatz trolling.
So, like, I don’t think you read what I said.
I said that these are traits you have in common with the person who pilots the account you claim to have nothing in common with.
I don’t think any of them are particularly remarkable on their own, they’re just counter-examples to “I couldn’t be more different”.
As I said, I do not care if you are a distinct entity from tehbatz or not. All I need to know about you are these:
You believe this when it is untrue and you bury your head in the sand about it.
And ‘talking about yourself’ is not abnormal, but roping it in when it isn’t relevant or as a form of diversion from topic or using it as a “I clearly know what I’m talking about because I have huge life success” – Those are abhorrent behaviours that I cannot tolerate because they are bad debating practice.
Fundamentally, no, each time you miss an inject your production is permanently behind some number of seconds as well. I do not think queueing is a valid response to this, because in order to queue injects you have to have more than one available - either you missed a whole cycle already, or you have a bunch of queens -
Once you have some extra queens and have queued injects,
Protoss needs to over-make warpgates to compensate.
And these are the same restriction. Having ‘extra’ Queens is the same as having ‘spare’ Warp Gates, you spent money so that even if your macro slips you still get a reasonable unit count.
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My brother in christ, talking about yourself is not a bad debating practice. It’s called being normal. Why do you feel the need to turn everything into a debate? You know who else used to do that. Tehbatz did. So do you prefer to be called kelthar, or tehbatz?
Yes and I also drink water, just like hitler did.
The only person even bringing the topic up is you and your alt accounts, which is in and of itself very strange. I am racking my brains here trying to think who on Earth could possibly care this much about tehbatz except tehbatz himself. As far as I am concerned, it couldn’t be more obvious that you (kelthar) are him.
The fundamental crux of all apm-denier arguments is that actions have zero time cost and are meaningless. These are absurd conclusions that are fundamentally incompatible with reality. All apm denier arguments boil down to one of these two claims and that means apm denier arguments are simply incompatible with reality. If you want to make a case against apm, you’d have to find a way to disprove it without making the claim of zero time cost and or meaningless actions, and that’s impossible because all actions definitely require time to do & they definitely have meaning, even the ones called “spam”. We’re talking “water isn’t wet” levels of denial. Even the alphastar researchers gave the zerg bot more apm knowing it would need more apm and it had identical results to the ladder with its bots being strongest with protoss and weakest with zerg. It’s simply a fact of reality, apm is 95% of the difficulty in the game and because zerg requires more it’s harder to play zerg. “But but but when I play zerg my apm goes up” no way sherlock, that’s literally the point. Your apm goes up because zerg requires more, giving you less time to focus on other aspects of the game. It’s not rocket science, it’s common sense.
Still harping on this nonsense. If I have 5 old beaten up cars, and you have 2 supercars, mine are still worth more money because I have more cars than you.
Not all actions are created equal. Dragging your mouse around isn’t treated as an action. Having to go between bases to build isn’t an action. Precise clicking isn’t a bigger action than spam clicking. Lmao.
I know that you need to desperately justify your wins, use questionable statistics to try and prove that you’re better, but it isn’t working, sweetie. I guess that because I am capable of logical thought, I must be a Kelthar alt.
You’re no better than the opponents Artosis complains about. You pick the OP cheesy things, like Terran before the Reaper nerfs, now Zerg, you leave against Protoss because Terran is the easy race (to beat), and then you lie on here about APM, to try and make yourself look good.
Again, which units to make, when to make them, and how many to make, is the fundamental challenge of zerg. These actions are not “lesser than” other actions, they are literally the chiefest actions of zerg. Your argument falls under this category:
In grandmaster I am one of the lowest apm players. I came to this conclusion despite my ego. SC2 is a game of apm spam and that means the better apm spammer wins. There are people in gm who are better at spamming apm than I am. It’s just reality. Hero could make 99.999% of people on earth look like clowns if they were to play against him, but he looks like a clown playing vs serral because serral is a higher apm player and hero just can’t keep up. That’s why hero loses 7 voids to biles when it was totally unnecessary & could’ve been avoided by simply having 1 more apm. Apm is the majority of skill in sc2. It’s just a fact of reality.
Maybe just stop talking about APM, because it’s easily proven that it doesn’t mean anything. Just keep it to yourself.
APM correlates with winrate at 0.65, which is the highest known correlation. Blizzard engineers published this in their own seminar. This isn’t my opinion, it’s every knowledgeable person’s opinion of the rts genre. This fact of reality also shows why base building rts is going down in popularity for the past 20 years, because the general population is really bad at spamming apm. That’s why base building RTS is now a minority category in the rts genre. MOBA is literally 2600x more popular, and it’s because base building rts(s) require too much apm spam. This is inline with psychology & neurological research which has found that the human brain is insanely bad at multitasking. Multitasking is rage-inducing for most people, yet it’s the dominant element of being good at sc2.
If you can equate APM to actual effort, strategy, then sure, go ahead. It’s honestly dumb to even talk about this, it’s literally too obvious, I’m dumb to even bother reasoning with it.
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It’s very easy. A person who has a mastery of the strategy does not have to spend time thinking. He simply acts. That’s why apm is equivalent to skill. Every skill in the game becomes faster as you become better at it. A faster player is better at the game, period, end of story.
Zerg have more choices, with Zerglings they can control individually. Protoss have Zealots, that have less options. That has nothing to do with strategy.
Correct, which is another reason why inject waves are definitely not “spam”. If you make the wrong units at the wrong time, you simply lose. The fact that inject waves happen fast makes it harder, not easier, meaning they contribute more to the hardness of the game than normal actions. People in this thread say inject waves are meaningless and easy, but if that were true there would be no difference between a bronze and a gm with regards to how they use inject. Watch 1 bronze replay and it will be apparent that inject takes a ridiculous amount of skill to use properly and the fact it happens fast, as a rapid fire action, makes it even harder to do.
Inject waves are an instant, obvious choice. Zealot positioning requires thought, and also precise clicking. Not all actions are created equally.
If inject waves were instant, zergs wouldn’t float money. Zergs do float money, therefore they are not instant. Try to keep up, sweetie.
Lol. Sorry, 20 characters. I’m done here.
Your replies are becoming the embodiment of this zerg spam style, lots of actions, but little thought.
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Because you’re saying things like they’re facts when they aren’t proven.
Therefore, you must convince me of your viewpoint. Guess what that requires?
Evidence and explanation. Debating the ramifications of that evidence.
Nobody said this though, and the message you’re directly replying to doesn’t bring up APM.
Genuinely, why are you bringing it up here? How does this relate to what was said?
No. No it doesn’t. No part of “actions aren’t equal” relates to “actions have no time cost” nor to “actions are meaningless”.
Stimming half your army counts as 1 action, splitting your marine ball can take as many actions as you want it to but let’s say 5 splits is a good number.
Both hugely increase your army’s effectiveness, but the latter actually takes twice as many clicks as well as the addition of precise mouse control, per action taken.
The difference is that a rapid-fire inject takes not even a half-second of thought, about a half-second of time, and is just holding two buttons down. It accumulates a very silly number of actions on your APM tracker.
Yes, having to happen on a tight timer makes it harder, but the fact that it happens quickly doesn’t. Is your argument that it is hard to hold V and space for half a second?
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I can tell you are full of it because if you were interested in receiving proof, you’d list what you’d consider proof. You’d say “If you show X, I will concede that I am wrong.” You will never define under what conditions you’d concede because you plan to move the goal post from now until eternity. There is no proof that will satisfy you.
Don’t take my word for it, take the word of the researchers from the Institute of Cognitive Science, Carleton University:
https://i.imgur.com/TN7NyyM.png
- There is an enormous correlation between apm and mmr (p=0.65).
- The correlation is a result of experienced players being able to play faster as a result of their experience.
Additionally take the word of researcher Minsuh Lim, Masters of Science in Data Analytics:
https://i.imgur.com/EZPCTW0.png
- Huge statistical significance in the apm differences between leagues.
- Difference in APM/SPM between races for the same rank indicates zergs may work harder for the same rank.
Translation, my opinion matches the data & the industry experts. Everyone who is knowledgeable about this, whether it’s cognitive science researchers, RTS game designers, computer scientists, or blizzard’s own people, everyone agrees that RTS is primarily mechanics which I colorfully call “apm spam”. Even David Kim at one point said they deliberately designed zerg to be the more mechanical race. It’s just a fact of reality. There is nothing to dispute here. You are disputing the idea that water is wet. You’re arguing for the sake of arguing.
Here is a study done on AOE2:
https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/sszvt9/stop_telling_people_that_speed_apm_doesnt_matter/
This chart is absolutely damning: https://i.imgur.com/GBpBA9E.png
There is nothing to argue here dude. Apm=skill. What’s crazy about his AOE2 chart is that this is the APM of a player for a single game. A player’s average APM over all games will be even more tightly correlated with rank.
It literally doesn’t matter what rank you’re in, are you making any money from your work? Donations from streaming? We don’t care if you play easy stuff to win, your viewers do.
I have no clue what that’s even supposed to mean, dude.