you getting clowned on battlepants tbqh. He wins this argument hands down. You legit have no clue what you’re talking about. You game understanding is astoundingly low. Pretty sad you can still get masters with this.
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Do you know how to read?
They work excellently all the way up to the top level. Pros use them all the time in TvZ. Stop with the nonsense.
YES Terrans DO whine about banelings, why do you think they got nerfed??? Are you kidding me? This wasn’t solely a Protoss complaint - Terran whine played a huge role in getting banelings nerfed, and of course it succeeded, why? Because it was Terran whine. You have to seriously be joking right now.
You can’t force engagements with banelings unless you are backed into a corner or are surrounded. Banelings do not scale better - they only work well in the sense that Zerg tends to take an inefficient trade to blast out your army. And read above about burrowed banelings.
You are straight up a degenerate clown that spends all his time crying rather than trying to reason things out. At least he’s worth talking to. No matter how ridiculous he sounds, he’s at least trying with somewhat sound reasoning.
So you already knew what I was talking about and then proceeded to disagree with me? Are you brain dead?
Specifically, they have pros and cons. Greedy EU players like Clem will open reactored factory almost every game and then proceed to lose to roach pushes because they’re not “excellent in every sense possible.” They have many huge flaws in TvZ, even if they’re still good units.
They were nerfed specifically against non light units, in the patch notes they said they don’t want to make ling bane weaker against Terran. They were nerfed soley for PvZ, you have no clue what you’re talking about.
What do you mean you can’t force engagements with banelings? Do you watch professional TvZ at all?
Yes they do because Zerg players will fill out their supply with banelings but Terran players will cut widow mine production as they approach max. One is supply efficient and mobile, the other is the opposite.
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I remember some T whinning about banelings working even against mech but mech being a not common strat and being countered by many other things didn’t got a lot of tears from the baneling side, but many times the best way to deal with mech was making mass muta, waiting the T to move out ,catch him unsieged and kill the army with mass ling bane. I think some Innovation vs DRG game got some discussion about mech. As for P, it is expected that they complained the most about it, since they had limited options against ravager-baneling, one would think collo was the answer, but no, collo died (and dies) to bane, so only one lucky disruptor shot would stop the banes.
You could’ve shortened this to “no” to answer my question
I said my statement under the assumption that no one is silly enough to make or mass widow mines against roaches or a roach ravager composition. So yes, you caught me in a specific scenario. Widow mines are not the solution to roach ravager.
Marauders are armored i.e. non-light. Pretty sure Terran also benefits from this unless the numbers actually don’t work out that way. Do feel free to prove me wrong on that though - otherwise, my point still stands. Even if they expressly say it’s for PvZ (and it is - I’m not doubting that point), it also helps TvZ.
Have you seen banelings perform well against a Terran bio army that’s off creep and not surrounded/backed into a corner?
Is this only in the sense where banelings are 50/25 but half supply while widow mines are 75/25 but 2 supply? Then yes they do scale better.
They do which is funny. I think mech is stupid and love anything that makes it non viable though.
I think that’s far more gimmicky and less consistent than bane ravager.
I don’t really think the bane was ever the issue. Trust me, I was calling Zerg imba before even BeastyQT back in the day. It was always that Protoss was on a timer but Zerg had enough mid game units so that they could never be killed before broods. If it was just ling bane ravager and Protoss had the stronger lategame, the games would look very different.
No, you don’t understand. You won’t know if Zerg is going roaches or not when you have to decide what add on you want to make on your factory. If you want to open with early mines you’re gambling. You really just don’t understand TvZ, and it baffles me why you’re here disagreeing with me.
LOL
It’s marginal. Marauders aren’t good in TvZ until you begin approaching max supply or you need to blindly prepare against ultralisks. That’s why the first 5 rax are always 1 techlab (for upgrades) and 4 reactors, while the next 3 rax (that come down after the 4th) will be 3 techlabs. I have never seen a Zerg say that the nerfs to banelings have made Terran late game too strong. You never wanted banes crashing into marauders in the first place anyway, since they have high movement speed (which makes them better against banes than Protoss units).
Very specific thing you’re asking, but yes I saw it in Serral vs Maru. It was on oxide and saved Serral from losing to the initial 3 medivac pressure.
It’s hard to say exactly why things in SC2 work the way they do, but yes that’s probably part of it. The way I think of it, widow mines start seeing decreased efficiency the more you make of them, whereas banelings don’t have that drop and oftentimes create very powerful maxed armies.
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The fact that you reacted with LOL is proof that once again you have no idea how to read:
THIS was the original argument/case I was talking about. When you bring up roaches, you are bringing in something completely new that continuously obscures from the original point I was trying to make. All you have been doing this whole time is drag me into a conversation that is further and further away from what I originally wanted to say, and quite frankly, it’s getting tiring. If you are going to keep dragging this discussion in a direction that steers completely away from the original topic, you can continue with yourself. And no, I am not going to reiterate my original point. Figure it out yourself, although you don’t know how to read. Evidence from a previous thread too:
LOL you mean this?
16:45. Let me ask you. Do you have eyes? Or do Terran players just view the game in a different lens? Or do you not know how to read? One of the things I said was OFF creep. And mind you - these were slow banelings and Maru let them connect with his bio. I would hardly call it a good performance as well considering it took 2 banelings to kill about 4 marines (never mind all the other lings and queens that died). And a little earlier on, widow mines killed 3 banelings FYI. That’s 75/25 that took down 150/75 - and the banelings didn’t even kill the widow mine, it was a queen.
Edit: removed what I said here LOL
Banelings do have that drop too. You don’t see people maxing out on banelings unless it is to flex on the Terran and blow up a planetary fortress - and it is well known that that is a very inefficient trade for the Zerg.
It’s not roaches, it’s talking about the viability of opening in a certain way. There are decisions you have to make in the game before you have any concrete reads on your opponents. Opening reactor first is risky, whereas there’s 0 risk to opening banelings against Terran. Essentially, banelings are more versatile and therefore more safe. See, I told you I could come up with more if I thought about it.
Yeah, I’m running off of memory here and not going through games to find examples. It was on the edge of creep and you’re right, slow banes connected. You chalk it up to Maru being bad at the game because you’ve never tried to squeeze extra value out of your units before.
No they don’t, you literally don’t understand the game at all.
You say you play all races right, but that doesn’t mean anything. You play 0 races at a decent level, you have no understanding of how Protoss match ups work let alone Zerg and Terran ones. If you did you wouldn’t be as low MMR as you are. A lot of our disagreements here are you simply not understanding how TvZ works.
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Opening reactor first into hellion is one of the best well-rounded openers. Not sure about opening a widow mine drop against Zerg though - it’s a rare thing. In any case, you are bringing up a very specific scenario where Zerg is doing some strange roach send early into the game. Question, have you seen a hellbat marauder push? Banelings don’t fare well against that unless all the units are clumped together. This is also something where Zerg needs a read on their opponent - do they need more queens? More lings? Banelings? Should they open roach? I would imagine there’s at least one other case out there where if a Terran does do a weirdly timed push early into the game, the solution is not to use banelings to fight it.
Here you are still trying to squeeze in some justification. This wasn’t the edge of creep - this was quite solidly in it. The baneling connection literally occurs next to a used up creep tumor. I don’t think you’re running on memory. You actually see the world in a different and delusional way.
By performance I did not mean skill of either player. I meant how efficiently the units traded. Again, if you actually knew how to read, you would’ve understand what I meant. Here’s a hint:
Yet instead you take it up as another opportunity to make up some delusion about me and throw another insult that doesn’t even apply.
Classic Terran whining - always about race and skill when logic and reasoning slaps you right in your face. Forget understanding the game for a second. You clearly have some serious misunderstandings of what I am saying in general. Also, you need to get your eyes checked. Or your brain. Either one probably works fine.
Okay, I clearly have to be more specific since you don’t understand TvZ builds. On a 3 barracks 1 factory 1 starport set up, your factory will eventually be finished building add ons for the rest of your infrastructure and then you have the choice to go either reactor into mines or tech lab into tanks as a follow up to your 16 marine 2 medivac drop. This is an almost universal transition to any 1-1-1 or 2-1-1 opening. Going reactor on the factory is how you transition into mines most effectively for the mid game. If you go reactor instead of techlab, the 1-1 roach all in off ~66 drones becomes borderline impossible to hold.
They do, you make banes reactively against that. You hold with queen baneling. There’s only 2 marauders in that push, they’re not meant to have DPS, they come with it only to use concussive and catch queens to prevent them from kiting.
The only downside to going banelings quickly is that you might overcommit to defence, which is why queen defences are super common, since they’re less commitment. When I’m talking about going banelings, I mean as an opening to the midgame analogous to the way you open mines into the midgame.
Tell me more about what I think.
I literally have to explain basic TvZ build orders for you. You have no clue what you’re talking about, your MMR is very relevant.
Yes you have to be very specific, because at this point, you are just wasting my time like a complete child and trying to waste my time finding one tiny flaw in my reasoning that accounts for 99-100% of cases. It’s getting extremely annoying now because instead of at least accepting that I am right in most cases, you are trying to find one tiny needle in the haystack and take that as the universally standing reason why my point is wrong. Do you not see how degenerate and petty you sound right now?
In any case, I know what you’re talking about. This is the mid-game transition. Of course, in your insane world, I have to disregard the fact that the Terran will build a logical composition. I also have to disregard that he somehow missed the fact that Zerg was opening roach. I really really do not want to entertain this delusion anymore - because even after I say you keep trying to drag me into these weird conversations (implying you should stop), you still keep doing it anyway. You are proving absolutely nothing. This case is roughly equivalent to making banelings against thors. As we start throwing reason out the door, let’s imagine a scenario where there is a good thor count, perhaps thor hellbat? I would start to prioritize roach ravager over ling bane in that scenario. I’m not even sure if the original reasoning is still consistent at this point - you’ve dragged me too deep into increasingly ridiculous scenarios and act like I should somehow have a complete understanding of how crazy you sound right now.
Just to reiterate from this large paragraph: if you keep doing what you’re doing with very silly niche scenarios, I’m not going to waste anymore of my time.
Queens are the real MVP here, along with lings if the hellbats don’t stick together. Banelings are not particularly ideal.
Just admit you’re wrong about what you saw in the video. Why do you have to be so snarky about it?
Avilo could never see balance for what it was - neither can you, just for different reasons. You’re both different versions of crazy.
Not really, I talk with Zerg and Terran players at my MMR and they know exactly what I’m talking about.
You act as if 1-1 roach timings aren’t meta.
What are you talking about. Bio mine isn’t logical? Because I’m saying if you dedicate a factory to building a reactor for mines in a normal build order you’re probably going to lose to a 1-1 all in.
Players don’t have maphacks. Look, please don’t act like you understand anything that I’m saying.
Literally happens all the time.
No they’re not, jesus christ. The marauders catch the queens and then the hellbats easy them. Baneling nests are made in response to scouting hellbat all ins.
You are so far off from reality it isn’t even funny. I’m not going to waste my time explaining to you how TvZ works and unlike you I won’t posture about it. You’re so far up your own a$s with how smart you think you are.
I think it’s fair to make this a good stopping point then. I am starting to lose track of what you are saying, and you don’t have any clue about what you’re talking about to begin with. And you continuously misunderstand what I’m saying by saying nonsense like this:
Just gonna close with saying how funny this is when you can’t even admit to seeing something incorrectly after seeing it again. This was a HUGE waste of time as you’ve completely steered away from the original point I was trying to make by listing very specific builds and trying to make both of us draw silly scenarios to try and prove my original statement wrong.
JUST FYI:
THIS was not a challenge. And it was ESPECIALLY not a challenge to flex your dyslexia.
Look little troll,
It’s not because you babyrage all of the time about your delusions that zerg is the weakest race by far or has the strongest players that sane persons have to agree with that. If anything, basically all of the sane people agree that the game is more or less balanced at this point. You can keep the Avilo-comparison for yourself, since you have about 90% of his character traits.
Imagine seeing Blizzard’s own MMR algorithm ran on GM win-rates for the past year, it spitting out -300 mmr for zerg, and then claiming it’s a delusion that zerg is the weakest.
Like I said, you and avilo are in the same boat. Avilo could never see balance for what it is and neither can you. You just have different motivations behind your craziness.
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I think it’s more likely that you are in the same boat as avilo than NaughtyElf and probably a good majority of the player base. I don’t think there are many people around here who can top avilo’s craziness except for your wild stories about being a prodigy child and becoming an MIT professor despite not knowing some fundamental statistics.
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A bit off topic but given some recent experiences I’ve had, I wouldn’t be surprised if Avilo tries to murder Atira.
You seem to get confused quite easily. I find battlepant’s answers to be quite composed and easy to read.
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“Quite composed” when he literally derailed my original point from the start by mentioning banelings and threw a couple of insults at the very beginning as well. Seriously, you Terran players really do see this world in a different light. You’re a complete puppet that has no idea what he’s talking about - just supporting someone that has a mutual hatred for Protoss. I can read what he says clearly, it just becomes less and less and relevant as he tries to drag my case down into some super specific scenario where the Terran somehow thinks it’s a good idea to start massing widow mines knowing that there is mass roach on the field. It’s obvious he’s trying to use this specific scenario to be like “HAHA GOT YOU” and then use it to negate my original points. It’s a classic straw man argument. The way he goes off on tangents about these builds and continuously insults me for not understanding them also makes things even harder to understand - god forbid I give him the benefit of doubt for any intelligence by assuming when he was talking about a roach push he was talking about the kind that hits around ~4 minutes when it’s a genuine blind counter rather than the mid-game version where it’s clear your opponent is going roaches. Never mind the fact that he has proven he has no idea how to read. Never mind the fact that he has proven his eyes aren’t connected to his brain. I guess it takes crazy to understand crazy if you think what he’s written is
FYI this is the only time I’ve gotten confused around here - and it’s because he has no idea what he’s talking about to begin with. I can usually keep up with what other people are saying because they are trying to make a point, but he has no point to make - he just thinks I’m purely widow mine balance whining when that’s not the case and also brings up baneling > widow mine out of nowhere.
If anything, you are the confused human being. Your profile is hidden, but if it weren’t, I could collect all your ridiculous posts together and show how lost you truly are. You aren’t capable of thinking for yourself, just following the bandwagon of hatred.