Simple change that may help fix this expansion: Queen’s Inject larva REQUIRES lair upgrade to function.
Reasoning: Simply to timegate zerg production until t2. This will slow zerg’s ramp up in production and bring it on par with the other races.
For example, Protoss can’t pick up production until cybercore and a 100s warpgate upgrade. Zerg can pick up production as soon as the first queen pops out. That’s because zerg’s production is limited by drone count and queens. Well, LOTV gave everyone an extra 6 workers to start–which ramped zerg much faster than the other races.
In previous expansions zerg didn’t need to be timegated due to the 6 worker count. For example Protoss could have warpgate done when zerg has far fewer units and be on par with zerg’s army supply. This is one of the reasons zerg is so forgiving to mistakes right now - there’s relatively little the other races can do to prevent zerg from nearly maxing drones by the time something threatening occurs–outside of some easily scoutable early cheeses (cannon and proxy).
This would also serve to limit the severely overpowered queen from being mass produced early on given that the lair morphing prevents a queen from being produced.
I’d even venture to say a short upgrade at the lair for inject larva after lair is done, but just start with lair requirement. It’d open up the ability like overlords have the ability to morph into overseers with lair.
6 Likes
Okay. Couple issues here.
1 being Zerg need early game AA. You’d have to lock inject behind Lair or an upgrade. You can’t lock Queens themselves behind anything, really.
2 being that this is actually a ninja buff. Zerg who skip queens until 3 hatch explode in economy, it snowballs so fast that it makes Zerg nearly impossible to catch macro, even with drone kills.
The main reason for this is because Hatcheries provide supply and constant larva generation. If you don;t bank larva and make drones non-stop while investing into more hatcheries, you end up with a very, very strong economy and can later on, barf out a massive amount of units. It snowballs stupid fast.
This especially matters in ZvP.
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This change wouldn’t affect AA. Zerg can still make queens. They can make 3 hatches and have two producing during lair… And let’s not forget zerg still have the ability to make early spores…without needing an evo chamber. Evo chamber req was removed in hots to help zerg use spores to deal with early widow mines. Then mines were nerfed in LOTV to reveal themselves after firing, but of course the evo chamber req wasn’t brought back.
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I don’t see how it could be a buff. Zerg can already make more hatcheries and mass drones now. If they did though, an early 1 zealot+ 1 stalker attack or reaper would really mess them up.
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Spores are good but they have to root and uproot. It’s a big deal early on.
But yeah, as long as Queens can still be made. Not an issue at all and like I said, this is actually a ninja buff. It will force almost all Zerg to play the more efficient way in terms of openers.
Zerg used to get to 12 workers sooner than Terran or Protoss, so every race starting at 12 is technically worse for Zerg. Also the nerf to inject made Zerg’s eco/production much weaker.
I know you’re just uselessly whining but at least come up with better arguments.
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Most Zerg don’t play the way this idea would make them play. I usually do because, frankly, I’m smarter than a lot of players and crunched some numbers (I sure don’t beat masters with my mechanics! lol).
If you expand instead of building queens until 3 base, then start up queens. Zerg macro snowballs super hard. To the point where losing 10 drones is a minor annoyance.
I’m assuming you’re talking about pre-LOTV and the 6 worker start. Your argument is that, because Zerg was able to get from 6 workers to 12 workers faster than T and P back then, zerg is worse off now. When you spell your argument out like that, you can see the obvious flaw. Your argument is a misdirection and it says nothing about what zerg can do now compared to the other races. Zerg can now get from 12 to 24 workers fast than the other two races, wouldn’t you agree? So what exactly is your point?
Zerg can use those workers now to get more hatches and drones quicker. Which allows them to get more drones. That’s why zerg is able to max out so much quicker than the other races… Watch a replay of every pro match out there. Short of a devastating timing push or a proxy cheese, zerg always outpaces their opponents in worker count, rather dramatically in most instances.
Also, if your argument were true, why was inject larva nerfed? Blizzard realized the worker increase benefitted zerg’s production more.
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Uh, no… Terrible, TERRIBLE idea. They are overpowered now, but you want them to still be in the game… What the hell?
If protoss can wait 100sec on warpgate, why can’t zerg wait on lair?
No. Why would you think that? Zerg doesn’t get queens out earlier in LOTV.
Untrue. Protoss actually has a higher worker count until ~45-50 drones.
Blizzard had to buff Zerg’s core units because of the larva nerf. LOTV’s 12 worker start did not help Zerg in any way. You can’t even point to a reason why because you can’t even think of one.
Zerg can definitely lead in macro with the right opener. Drones snowball into hatcheries which snowball into more drones. The growth is exponential.
It’s not exponential. In standard games Protoss has the worker lead until roughly 45 drones.
Problem is you’re thinking Standard. Standard zerg builds are sub optimal.
Drones create hatcheries which create drones which create hatcheries. It’s exponential growth.
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And that’s exactly why the 12 worker start benefited Zerg the most.
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My go to strategy in ZvP is to 12 pool, extractor trick out 6 lings and expand 2x behind it for this reason. The 3 bases lets me skip queens for a bit and drone like mad as the Protoss deals with 6 lings being a total PITA.
By time the Protoss thinks of attacking, I’m on 4-5 bases with a 50+ drone economy at 5ish minutes. Without using Inject.
Most zerg openers are inefficient due to queens and some KR pros are figuring this out.
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There is no build that would give Zerg the worker lead. If the Zerg didn’t prepare at all for Zerg aggression then you could maybe get the lead around 40 workers but you’d die to one oracle or two adepts.
In pro games Protoss always starts with the worker lead.
The fact that people actually think this shows how little they understand about the game.
Again, zerg openers aren’t optimal. They sacrifice a lot for Queens when, depending on the MU, they won’t be needed right away.
If you, for example, go hatch 1st and extractor trick out 3 additional drones, you get a massive lead.
If you open 12 pool into double expand in ZvP you start off slightly behind but sky rocket forward once your 2 expands finish.
For ZvT, I don’t think you can skip Queens, however, unless you want to lose to cheese.