You auto lose if you play mech against early mutas

And SC2 devs had years to think about this… and didn’t fix it and haven’t simply removed the muta from the game because it’s simply so so so fun to play against… so fun to play against that pros auto-lose to it while playing bio.

Just for a short summary:

If my opponent goes 2 base muta and I have 3 factories and 4 cyclones at the time his mutas arrive, then his mutas do NOTHING and he bleeds 2 of them for free, while I get my third base earlier… the game is over. It’s over but for the terran. Tho I don’t need to clarify that because I assume anyone reading this has over 3 brain cells.

Killing those 2 mutas isn’t nearly enough to be able to expand while my opponent can do ANYTHING at his side of the map because a counter-attack is impossible. Very obviously, even if I get out 8 cyclones they won’t beat the mutas in a straight up fight outside of my base and out on the map… okay so I can’t counter-attack despite my opponent failing that badly AKA the game doesn’t instantly end the second my opponent fails that badly, that’s already enough of a problem.

You can expand but you have to delay your expansion substantially while your production is a fraction of your opponent’s and your eco is a faction of your opponent’s. This stems from the fact that terran is just so weak after being forced to defend let alone taking any damage at all from a zerg cheese. Zerg can’t even reasonably fail 2 cheeses (that aren’t all-in) and be behind.

You can’t kill your opponent in this situation, even with bio they can just attack your base with mutas in order to try to prevent you from moving out. You have to wait until your army is good enough that the zerg ground army will die to it and also all those mutas will die to it… so you need 6-7 minutes to get to the 200/200 maxed out mech tank thor hellbat army, at which point it’s like the zerg never took any damage at all and never failed any cheese at all, because just 1-2 minutes of not harassing the zerg and letting them expand + drone up means you are in severe danger of losing the game. Killing 10-20 drones with hellions is unlikely, pro play shows how easy hellions are to counter, but doesn’t matter in the first place.

At this point it comes down to the zerg not completely messing up and doing anything effective against the weakened opponent to auto-win.

Same as BW, you just can’t kill your opponents as terran if you utterly outplay them, you have to wait until a late game at which point it’s as if the early and mid games never happened and they just abuse vipers/swarmhosts/ultras and you’re dead.

Here’s the rule: If a player’s opponent fails 2 cheeses and they spend all their money, if their army then gets annihilated when counter-attacking, any blame you can possibly place on the player is nothing compared to just how awfully horrible the game balance is designed. Currently as T, everything that can realistically go your way against a cheesing zerg player for the first 9 mins can do so, and you are hopelessly behind.

Meanwhile, again (I’ve talked about this in my previous threads), the only cheese that even ends the game against zerg is a 4rax and this automatically loses if your opponent abandons their natural, while also having free vision of anything you’re doing with speedlords/overseers so later cheeses can be easily spotted.

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Did you really just make a thread complaining about how your late-game strategy which relies on establishing a solid economy and building up a large army doesn’t have the ability to walk across the map and kill your opponent at the 6 minute mark when they lost a whopping two mutalisks while doing a “cheese” (not all in)?

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You had 5 minutes to find the mutas, the weakest straight-up engage in the game, and it is too inconvenient to build a couple of bunkers at each base. Tough life…

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Make 1 thor and shut up. You tech faster than any race in the game. Terrans are the biggest cry babies.

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lol what

What is this thesis statement? It doesn’t have any clear claim and tries to insult the reader if they disagree with whatever ambiguous meaning you’re trying to convey. Poor start.

Have you established that? Do you think a counter-attack has to be “I kill all their bases”? You established you have 3 factories and 4 cyclones against muta. You can definitely go across the map to harass with hellions which will force the mutas to stay at home or on the map rather than your base. Yeah you can’t go win the game outright immediately with mech in that position, but you can set yourself up for a victory down the line.

Yes because cyclones aren’t the mech counter for muta. You’re looking for widow mines and thors.

So you think any attempted timing attack that doesn’t work should result in a position no one can recover from? I’m very glad you don’t design RTS games. Talk about squelching any strategic freedom.

Yes. The weakness of mech, and why it’s far less popular at the highest level, is that it’s difficult to move out and expand with; especially on large open maps. That being said, you can definitely still take your third against mutas if you respond properly (which, as said, isn’t mass cyclone which at this point is the only thing you’ve indicated as a unit comp you think is appropriate to use against a muta rush).

Terran isn’t remotely weak after defending a cheese. Zerg committing to units and tech slows their economy drastically compared to where they would be if they had played standard (though you’ve given no specific timings what-so-ever so for all we know they attacked with mutas at a totally normal muta timing which would mean this isn’t an all-in at all). Not sure what the second cheese was, all you’ve mentioned is…mutas hitting at an ambiguous timing. The only accurate thing you’ve stated is that mech terran can’t immediately go kill a cheesing Zerg; which is by design. Mech is a slow build up to an incredibly high power, slow army, conversely Bio is a quick build up to a very dps dense and mobile army. If you want a quick and responsive option from Terran, it sounds like you’re just playing the wrong comp.

You can absolutely move out with bio from a muta rush. You just can’t F2. If you get a turret out after you deflect the first attack and rally reinforcements to a defensive position you will be able to hold the mutas trying to attack you while your remaining army is on the zerg’s side of the map where you’re in a position to cancel a third, confirm if they’re droning, and see if they have followup tech. This will force mutas on the defensive, where they’re incredibly underwhelming.

No. You don’t. If Zerg invests in a muta rush, they have to cut production somewhere else. A hellion counter attack while defending at home (assuming mech) or a bio attack while relying on 1 turret in each mineral line and reinforcements to defend will do damage to the already weak Zerg economy.

Do…do you think you’re playing against pros? Even if you were, this evidence doesn’t exist. Hellions absolutely still do damage. Again, damage does not equal the zerg immediately leaving the game. It equals killing drones or reducing army size at a favorable trade rate.

You’ve failed to prove this in any way.

Again, you’ve failed to prove this at all. In addition, any perceived BW issue stems from poor unit control options and “balance by map” approach. Terran is the defensive race option in BW; it can’t be designed to be the strongest defensive race and be the best at counter attacking. It would just be the best race outright if it could have its cake and eat it too.

Again, you’ve failed to state what the 2 cheeses were. You’ve just been saying mutas happen and that it was 2 cheeses.

Explains why pro zergs go 2 base muta and 12 pool every game against Terran…because it’s just impossible for Terran to do anything. Wait…noticing something weird…that’s actually…incredibly uncommon. Those builds don’t happen. So, if they’re as impossible to counter as you say, why haven’t the pro Zergs been doing this every game?

…And? Yes, if you want to outright win a game with a cheese you have to be fully committed to it. This is true for all 3 races. Even in the scenario you presented the mysterious attacks the zerg did didn’t win outright; they just made you skiddish and drove you to make bad decisions. The zerg didn’t beat you; you beat you.

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Yes I have lost with mech if I didnt prepare early for mutas but a scan and see the spire is enough to make the first thors. This can happen within 6th min or any later is good to have if you check at that time. Then mutas cant do much. Late game is a prob if the zerg has got too many expands.

Ah with bio. WM and still you need a 1-2 Thor. Pure marine can lose like if you have 24 rines vs 24 mutas

build mutas
dies to marine
uninstalls game
goes on forum to complain
such dead game
very button
developers developers developers

Starcraft2.

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Going for early Mutas puts you in many compromised positions. If you’re vigilantly scouting you can exploit it. Not saying they’re not hard to play against but it’s not auto lose.

It’s an auto win for crying out loud. The game’s been out for 12 years and some people still don’t understand basic build openers. Fast mutas isn’t a thing. Mutas aren’t a thing. You can’t defend a fourth base when going mutas off a normal macro build. You trade horrendously thanks to a lack of 3/3 and adrenal vs the terran’s 3/3 upgrades. 2 base muta is even worse because you will be a full 2 upgrades behind AND behind economically. Mutas are aweful units and it’s amazing people haven’t figured this out yet.

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Not exactly. Zerg can hide spire on the map, but still if you build 1 - thor supported by few turrets + few widow mines you should be fine.

No way. 24 mutas will BARELY beat 24 marines and if you have medivacs - marines win (i think) In general zerg should never trade mutas with marines unless overwhelming numbers. It is not uncommon for pro zergs too run away with 20 mutas against 10-15 marines.

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Hardly. The only place would be their natural they are not going to build it far away. But yes I never like the mass cyclone mech, rather the hellbat, tank and air/thor; getting 1-2 thors discourages them from ever making mutas.

24 mutas is a lot and can win esp with their upgrade but it can be close

I meant - drop creep with an overlord in a random spot on the map and build it there.

Hey, OP! I play only mech vs Zerg and i think Muta is autolose for zerg.
As terran u scout with reaper and see no 3rd but fast tech from zerg. So it can be something unusual like nydus with roaches or swarmhosts, it also can be muta. If u cant scout it right, just make 1 turret at every mineral lane and scout with viking all around ur base for overlords. Also u can start ur push at zerg base with some hellbats to make him play defensively, and then u will scout roach/muta tech. While u keep him busy at base u start build tank/thor and mines/hellions. I like to build 1-2 medivacs vs muta. Put thors inside and drop them when muta appears at ur base. In the same time u build ur army and 3rd base, while zerg cant harass u with medivac+thor combo. When u have good enough army u start ur push. Muta is very expensive, so zerg will not have big army to stay against ur mech.

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So maybe they arent that awful?

Have you ever talked with an average joe? Mutas are horrific units. If you lose to them, you should probably switch to tic tac toe. The game has been out for 12 years. The meta is very well understood. You cannot keep pace with bio upgrade scaling. Period, end of story.

4 mines will 1 shot huge clusters of mutas. Place 4 mines in a cluster in key locations where you’ll end up chasing or baiting mutas. Add Marines as needed until you can afford enough Thors to scare the mutas away.

Mutas are so incomprehensibly sh*t in every matchup except ZvZ that everyone below GM should just stop using them.

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when you look at the lost muta game. Compare the army costs and think “why did I waste my resources on mutas?”. and then ask yourself “why do 50/0 units destroy 100/100 units?”.

there are moments when shine mutas. especially when you can hide them against mech or toss.
but in the low lvl you can also throw away victories if you bet on mutas. i do it often.

Except they’re not, they are regularly used in TvZ very successfully, and are sometimes a free win in PvZ depending on how your opponent opens.

Lurkers are definitely BETTER but to say mutas are garbage is hilariously wrong.

Muta is not garbage, but its much harder to play for low/mid lvl zerg. A lot of micro and multitask. And 1 single mistake - u lose muta at mine and need time to regenerate. Or 1-2 shots of thor - need time again. In the same time zerg needs to macro.
Overall muta playstyle is very intensive for mid lvl players, roach/ravager or ling/bane/hydra is just easier to play, imho.