Hydra-ling-bane performs well enough against Bio-mine, and it easily transitions into Lurkers. The Lurker transition renders Widow Mines useless.
Lurkers heavily outrange Widow Mines, they move faster, they burrow at the same speed, they shoot sooner (the very last spine of an upgraded Lurker hits 0.178 seconds sooner than the Widow Mine finishes its lock-on), and they demolish both Bio units and Widow Mines
Roach - 75/25
Marauder - 100/25
Adept - 100/25
Invisible burrowed ranged reusable baneling, I mean Widow Mine - 75/25
No one has seen anything wrong with this?
There isnāt anything wrong with it.
Widow Mines do not explode on death, they cannot damage buildings, they deal friendly-fire damage, they must burrow to attack, and they must wait an additional 1.5/1.4 = 1.07 seconds to lock-on and shoot at a target. Even an unupgraded Baneling off creep can clear 7.5 range within the time it takes a Widow Mine to burrow and fire.
The Baneling has a lot of offensive advantages that Widow Mines lack. The units are significantly different apart from the fact that they both deal flat AOE damage.
Furthermore, every faction is reasonably capable of dealing with Widow Mines. Even Zergling/Baneling, which is the most vulnerable composition to Widow Mines, is reasonably able to deal with compositions like Bio-Mine.
just like bio+tank, can also deal with ling/ bane.
the statement Wm are necessary is so ~lalal
WM have defensive advantage that bane do not have.
Again, we have the records from HOTS. Nerfing the Widow Mine literally lead to a period where Terran was non-competitive, and that nerfed version of the Widow Mine was actually still stronger than the few nerf suggestions Iāve seen on the forums.
Sure, although Banelings can still serve as defensive mines, albeit without the same activation range or air targeting, but with a larger overall radius).
Widow Mines generally rely on the opponent to be lured into them, rather than being able to pounce on the opposing army or bases. That can matter quite a bit in games where both sides are constantly moving.
Banelings drops would also be much better than Widow Mine drops if both factions had similar transports. After all, Banelings can detonate instantly, chase the workers, detonate if they are killed, etc; all in a larger area. Widow Mines need 2.14 seconds to burrow (before drilling claws) followed by an additional 1.07 seconds to shoot. After drilling claws, the total time is still 2.14 seconds.
Btw Maru once said that in order to trade well with hydra-ling-bane you need BOTH Tanks and WMs. Or you need to gather critical mass of tanks (~8) at which tanks become good against ling-bane.
I occasionally watch streams of GML Terrans its very easy to see that after Hydra joins the party than 4M Terrans suddenly stops having good trades.
LowkoTV also mentioned that that most TvZ looks the same - Terran does parade push with 4M until Lurker appears at which point if Terran didnāt managed to deal catastrophic damages Lurkers just kill Terran army and destroy Terranās 4-th and usually its gg. Or there are too few Lurkers and Terran manages to throw enough bodies on them. On few occasions when there is a draw Terran manages to add Tanks and Ghosts in time and we see 30 minutes long endurance game.
Not really, you need 7-8 tanks clumped together to deal with ling-bane wave.
There are ways to play tank style with constant drop harass (while you mass tanks at your base) but Iām not sure it would work at the top. uThermal does it occasionally but he is not exactly the top Terran.
Also on the ladder if Zerg realize that you are trying to play mass tank they would either add Muta, or Corruptors to their ling bane army both of which are excellent at stopping drop harass. Actually Iām not sure that it is at all possible to win against such compositions without WM against opponent of equal skill.
But even if it is, there is an elephant in the room called āTvPā which right now is straight unplayable without WM. Couple of years ago Blizzard tried to remove invisibility from WM and it - as predicted - resulted in Terrans being forced to do 2 base all-in or cheese every gameā¦ and with abysmal win rates. And since then Protoss defensive capabilities were BUFFED.
Do you believe that you are better than Harstem?
the opponent must run optimally over the bane and that you have to activate it yourself. what even top players overlook.
But both units are designed for their race, even for the match up TvZ.
generally i find wm a tick too much. either from dmg perspective ā vs ling/bane or as worker harass (really stupid) or from utility side that wm can attack ground and air.
i mean this is the whole principle of bioā¦
attack and run away aka stutter step. do terran since WoL with tank and now with mine.
what kind of statement is that?
what do you mean buff drop lords? ovi get default afterburners now?
wow ā¦ should also be within range.
because reality shows us that Bane never strike in the middle of a group, but mostly at the edge.
make most unitsā¦ vs marine drop you also pull the worker away.
even with mine.
yes it is.
What you are missing is friendly fire: what you see in game is WM that fired at your army. What you donāt see is when WM fires at their own army and do far more damage to it than to an enemy one.
Btw loading marines into Medivacs just before WM detonation only work when there are just a couple of WMs: otherwise they will kill Medivacs with their friendly fire. Iām sure that every Terran have such experience.
Personally I would much rather prefer not to use them at all (I actively avoid using them in TvZ unless my opponent forces me by going into muta) but in TvP they have no alternative.
The Widow Mineās damage is perfectly fine. The single target damage is explicitly designed to one-shot the basic 2-ranged units that outrange it without one-shotting the shorter ranged Roaches.
The splash damage (including the shield damage) is also fairly well tailored for each match-up. The splash is enough to one-shot Zerglings/Banelings without the friendly-fire rendering Marines useless, and it is high enough to threaten Stalkers, Mutalisks, etc.
Bio forces also want to charge against fleeing enemies too when they have the advantage. Banelings can do that, Widow Mines mostly canāt.
My point is that although Widow Mines are commonly used in drops now, Banelings are actually a better drop unit. Widow Mines have a very long delay between dropping and being able to shoot; whereas Banelings can just drop on top of the workers or chase them down.
The Widow Mineās burrow requirement makes it awkward and worse than Banelings in many situations.
It actually depends what do you do with the APM. If you dance around widow mine in circle then you might need 400 APM to do it. Otherwise itās: select few pre-splitted zerglings > right click on the minefield area > profit. If there is a Terran army behind the widow mines itās even better because Terran gonna self destruct due to widow mines friendly fire. And it doesnāt require 400 APM. Just 4 APM and atleast two brain cells.
Terran players also like to forget they have the best unit in the game, ghosts. They counter everything a zerg wants to do against bio comp, lurkers, vipers, infesters, Ultralisks, overseers, am I forgetting something? Iāve looked at the games between Serral and Clem. Serral tried different strategies, roach timing, overlord drops, ling/bane, etc and Clem, M/M/M/tanks/WM/Libs/Ghosts, M/M/M/tanks/WM/Libs/Ghosts, M/M/M/tanks/WM/Libs/Ghosts. Iāve looked at the hotkeys for both regarding armies, Clem has 2 main army hotkeys and 1 for libs. Serral has 2 army keys, 1 for vipers, 2 for queens and boxes infestors.
When it comes to pro play thereās just no time to clear out WM, you just have to accept that youāre gonna take loses. I donāt even know how serral manages to box the targeted zergs and split them so quickly. It seems rather unfair that you need to exert so much effort when your opponent just places and forgets about them while also reaping huge rewards.
Show me where that happened even once ? even like close 30? even like 20?
Why would Tempests ever have trouble with Widow Mines??
Tempest have Ground Attack Range 10!!! Widow mines has 5 !!
You know that Mutas kill widow mines faster before they shoot, right??
Usually not bringing detection it can hurt plenty, no matter the range on the units.
Edit: Also this thread is 2 years old. Iām sure CollegeWings will get back to you, lol.
Well letās give protoss another unit for detection, why not ???
Maybe they will be quiet for a day or so!