Why so many crying about protoss?

General Discussion
42

Protoss players are on average worst than players from other races (lower apm, floating more ressources, bad map awarness etc etc.) So the fact protoss players are winning tournaments despite the fact they are worst shows blatant imbalance.

If you want to discuss actual in-game stuff that is imbalanced, protoss economy is too powerful. The combination of insane chronoboost probing + the absolute safety from a few shield batteries allow protoss to take fast third and take huge economic lead. And there is absolutely nothing terran can do about that. They just sit on 3 base and power up a huge ball of protoss splash and face roll you. It takes 0 skill, just knowing the right build order… And air toss is ridiculously busted versus zerg, everyone knows that. Zergs just dont have an answer…

So to recap, economy is busted, shield batteries are busted, storm is busted, disruptor is busted and air toss is busted. All of those would require important nerf for the game to be balanced. Of course you disagree, you’re protoss. You are biased as hell and want to keep your free wins…

43

sure kid, all players are great except protoss player.

when terrans or zerg win, is because they are good, but when protoss win is because the race is op.

dont you see how ridiculous this is??

according to you everything about the race is op.
sorry but i cant waste more time with you.

4 Likes
44

Its objectively true, watch replays from players. The only players that are on an even level with the top terran and zerg are stats / trap and they just won the super tournament in a pvp finals. When protoss players play as well as the terran, they will almost certainly win the game. Both players 3-0’d their opponents in the semi-finals against the top of the other races.

1 Like
45

Not everything about the race is op as you can see i have pointed out very specific things that need to be adjusted, but something does needs to be done about the whole picture because right now its unstoppable.

Maybe a nerf to shield battery would be enough to slow down the economy and allow terran to keep up because protoss needs to invest in additional safety.

46

i dont think thats true, protoss players are just as good as player of the other races and storm is no op.
sky toss i dont think its op and its very hard to get there, thats why most protoss players were trying to end the game fast vs zerg.

the problem with protoss comes from WOL.
tier 1 units are weak because of warpagate, thats why protoss have forcefields.
but that was not enough, thats why they added the mothership core.
people didnt like that, so now we have batteries.
the issue is the design of the race.

2 Likes
47

P production works that way, you need minerals to warp ins during certain moments of the game. Once you have 12-16 gates you can perfectly spend a lot of resources in a single warp round, something that T can’t really do and Z can do if they have enough larva.Not to mention the difference in type of resources of the units, Zealots cost only minerals, HT mostly gas,some rounds you are wasting more minerals than other rounds.

I’m looking at sc2replaystats data and it shows that the average spending numbers are really similar in GM.

grandmaster 123.94 P126.96 Z130.41
PvP 115.64
grandmaster 127.91 P130.86 T137.33

Every race’s average counting every matchup

grandmaster 119.34 P124.25 T122.42 Z120.99

1 Like
48

The troll does not understand that before starting the build of 3 Carriers Protoss HAS to have 3X350/250=1050/750 resources ready. Or if he is to build 8 Archons he has to have 8X100/300=800/2400…
So, in mid-late game the resource-floating (unless you are at 100 Supply, no Upgrades going) for protoss is misleading.
Why on earth one would have 3 Robo, 5 Stargates and 16 GW if current resources are 100/100?
Having also expensive units makes Protoss “float” more.

1 Like
49

Today I played a T with 8 factories…never got more than 3 bases, bank always low but many idle factories :sweat_smile:

1 Like
50

ROFL, gateway units being weak… Charlot/stalkers with decent upgrades (which is easy because op chronoboost) can still stomp MMM until terran gets a critical mass… I dont know where that myth is coming from but T1 units from protoss are far from weak.

1 Like
51

So the whining never ends and has almost no logic. The GM argument doesn’t hold ground. If you look at what is actually happening you see a very different story.
Most recent data from Aligulac as of 13 Jan 2021:

Puts Protoss winrates as lagging 6% behind the other races and Zerg ahead by 8%

3 of the top 10 players are Protoss with Showtime moving up recently in the standings (congrats Showtime) which shows balance is pretty close. 30% are Protoss.

Similarly 14 of the top 40 players are Protoss meaning 35% of players are Protoss, an almost perfect split considering it’s a game with 3 races. with 5 of these 14 in ranked 33rd-36th.

39 of the top 100 players are Protoss, meaning 39% of the best players in the world are Protoss, making them slightly ahead demographically at this level, but distributed more heavily towards the bottom compared to the other two. So slightly more people are playing Protoss here, but most of them don’t win much of anything.

81 of the top 200 players are Protoss, making 40.5% of the top players in the world are players of the race. We see Protoss representation pulling more ahead here, but it is very noteworthy that again, Protoss is much more heavily distributed towards the BOTTOM of the ranks vs. the top. Unlike at the top level of the game, where you see an almost even 1/3rd share of victories.

120 of the top 300 players are Protoss holding their demographic share steady here at 40% as they were in the top 200, once again, more players showing up at the bottom of the ranks than at the more hyper-competative top level of Serral, Raynor, TY, Trap, Stats, etc.

So as we can see stretching out into the top 300 players in the world, though Protoss is the more popular race to play for whatever reason that might be: it is not leading in wins, and is not overrepresented at the top level, and is not dominating the tournament scene as one would expect were the race actually “OP” as salty Terrans like to cry.

In fact if you look at the stats on the match ups you see that Protoss wins 51.32% of the time against Terran and 49.8% vs. zerg making the three win rates about as balance for Protoss as you could possibly want.

If we go a step farther and look at the leading and lagging trends over time we see that Protoss has been lagging in win rates by 6 to as much as 12% consistantly since July 2015.

So what does this mean? Protoss isn’t OP, and in fact has been UNDERPOWERED for half the life of the game.

4 Likes
52

From a unit that you don’t like to produce and use properly: Ghost.
Uber-EMP makes everything GW trade with half HP-Pool.
Idiot!

3 Likes
53

so why they gave us forcefields, mothership core and now batteries?

54

According to what - a few games you happened to watch which, in your opinion, show protoss isn’t OP?

That’s the great thing about stats. They aren’t subject to opinion (they are fact), aren’t limited by your brain’s capacity to remember (can encompass millions of games) and aren’t limited by biases (such as selection bias, e.g. you watch games that are interesting to you, not because they are representative of balance).

As BigTurkey said, “I saw an airplane crash, therefore airplanes are unsafe” is not a valid argument - it’s borderline delusional.

2 Likes
55

[quote=“ShiaLaBeouf-11502, post:50, topic:20102”]
I dont know where that myth is coming from but T1 units from protoss are far from weak.
[/quote]Chargelots are decent, but once T has the numbers, they are pretty weak, specially when there are chokes involved. In direct fights they can die easily with some widow mine shots/EMPs plus stim, and banelings, they are not a reliable force, they are cannon fodder, they work better when divided, better having 10 zealots along the army and other 6 zealots on a runby than having 16 zealots with the main army.Stalkers?it depends on what you are going to do, they are good to snipe things and map control, not to fight direct fights, 1 roach has the same fighting value than a basic stalker for half the price, stalkers has no chance against stimmed bio in direct fights.

Gateway units are not terrible, but they are outclassed easily by other low tier units, they are mostly support units, the good P units are robo units/HT/air, these are the units that does the real job during non gateway all in games.

Forcefields are pretty useless now, yesterday Stats used perfect forcefields but lost anyway because they were denied by biles. Today Trap landed some forcefields that were not enough (also landed some useless forcefields). Forcefields used to be the key to protoss gameplay, now they are just a niche aid.

5 Likes
56

stats dont show everything.
sometimes the meta is changing and the players from other races have to adapt and than the % of wins change.
stats cant show that and cant show if protoss win by doing all ins all the time, to give u an example.

now tell me this stat, how many championships did zergs, terran and protoss win the last 3 years.

plst tell me how many tournaments won each race.

2 Likes
57

Stats can and are just about the only way to do so.

1 Like
58

yea, i know, i was just poiting out that protoss needed forcefields back in WOL because tier 1 units could not hold.
thats why then we had the msc and now batteries.

1 Like
59

no, you also have to watch the games and see what its going on and how the players win.
and as i said, sometimes the meta is changing and then the players adapt to that and the % changed again.

stats dont show everything.

1 Like
60

Yes as an investigative tool once a problem has been identified. However it is simply not possible to understand every single one of every 10’s of 1000’s of builds that exist and which fluctuate in frequency according to the meta.

Even pro players don’t fully understand even the strategies that they play the most. Literally the only way to figure out balance issues is to look at the stats, which are an aggregate of thousands or millions of games.

1 Like
61

i watch a lot of pro games, i dont see how protoss is op vs zerg.
im seeing zergs win all the time.
zerg won more tournaments than protoss by far.

once protoss start winning a few games everyone starts to cry, come on, stop this nonsens.

1 Like