I don’t want to sound nitpicking here, but Raszagal is just 1,600~1,700 years old. Zeratul is just a bit over a millennia. If my memory serves.
However, I think this is a problem stems from a worst issue. The Protoss should be an ancient race, but then they also live very long. We always feel like the exiled of Dark Templar is very long in the past, but it’s actually just for a single generation, two at the most. (So, Zeratul saying that the Protoss for generation after generation should the mantle of Dark Templar is just weird.) We also know that the Dark Templar was exiled soon after Khas and the creation of the Khala, which means the whole Aeon of Strife thing ended no more than two generation ago. Seriously, the whole Protoss history timeline is a mess. And this happens when the writer didn’t overbuild their world and backstory. The whole Amon’s thing is also ridiculous if you view it all through this timeline. (Ridiculous-er.)
If you’re reading this TrickyHunter, I hope you understand why I’m always telling you to make more detail. All these stupidity can be avoid if only the writers weren’t so sloppy.
Presumably a generation is not the same as a lifetime. Information on protoss reproduction is annoyingly vague, but they almost certainly don’t only just become fertile towards the end of their thousand + year lifespan.
Artanis’ interactions with him seem to suggest he is a generation behind Tassadar, and is about 100 years younger. So eyeballing it, there have been about 10 generations of Nerazim born after the exile, assuming 100 years as a protoss generation is accurate.
You’re right. However, I don’t think 100 is a correct estimate. Seeing as how Protoss treated Artanis like he is a young kid fresh out of college, I wager that due to culture and social etiquette the Protoss wouldn’t procreate until they’re 300 or so.
Regardless, given that the Protoss’ life expectancy is 1,000 years compare to our 80 years, then the Dark Templar was exiled about 90~100 years ago and the aeon of strife was about 200 years from our perspective. Looking our history, you’ll see that this timeline still ridiculous.
Remember that Artanis has the highest military rank available at the time, which is why he seems so young. Its not actually suggested that he is physically anything other than an adult, just inexperienced.
Maybe for an European, but for an American, that’s a long time and has room for a lot of stuff to have happened.
I totally agree with you. Overall the average ages of protoss characters have been dramatically shortened: Artanis was considered a reckless youth in BW but by SC2 he was a respected teacher and a high-ranking leader (since he’s actually a fusion of two different characters; the SC1 executor was probably around ~500 years old like his/her classmates Tassadar and Fenix). I’d write a timeline with specific dates, but I’m pretty burnt out in general right now.
I’d be happy enough with “several protoss lifetimes passed between so and so important historical events.” Khas rebuilds Khala/Psi Matrix, Tal’darim expelled by Conclave, many lifetimes pass, Adun studies void, Nerazim expelled by Conclave, more lifetimes pass, Kalath Intercession, terran colonization, first contact war. The protoss have various methods of life extension, storing souls in the cloud, and resurrecting the dead, so some present characters may have “lived” through the Discord like Taldarin and Raszagal.
But back to your overall point, a clear backstory will not fix anything where Blizzard is concerned. They contradict themselves all the time. Remember the Eredar and Draenei retcon? Starcraft is no exception. Remember when they said that genetically modifying overlords would destroy their psychic powers, yet the overseer has even better ESP and spawns changelings with psychic illusions? Remember when they cured Stukov with anti-zerg nanomachines but needed a magic item to cure Kerry?
Consistency is more important than a painstakingly detailed backstory. One doesn’t necessitate the other.
Agree that the timeline seems a little short, at least by our standards. The exile of the dark Templar would be like roughly a century for us. How long ago did was the aeon of strife? I think it was only implied to be a thousand or two years before the exile? Protoss history just seems very compressed.
Little off topic, but I also wish starcraft 2 took place at least 20 years after broodwar. Would make some of the Protoss politics make more sense, because 4 years is nothing to them. Also, would explain how the dominion rebuilt to the extent they did by sc2.
I think people have a tendency to exaggerate the degree of damage done to the Dominion at the end of Brood War, and overestimate how strong they are in Wings. In BW the only planets they owned that got significantly damaged were Korhal (which was barren anyway) and Braxis. Everything else they owned was left alone, and it was only their standing military that was actually damaged to any significant degree.
Meanwhile in Wings, any time the Dominion faces a serious military threat, they crumble. Mengsk has trouble actually controlling the media and cant effectively defend even his core worlds from the zerg invasion. Heck, as soon as somebody unites the Mar Sara militia, they put up a pretty impressive fight against the Dominion. The assault on Char takes fully half of their standing fleet just to establish a base for however long it took the Artifact to charge. In HotS, Mengsk is pushed around left and right, with Kerrigan basically being able to take things from him at will. The Dominion never has any particular success in SC2 on their military power alone, so I don’t understand why people complain about how powerful they are.
I see. However, there is one more point that I forgot to bring up; Vorazun and Raszagal. Literally, the only parent-child relationship in the whole universe. Anyway, we don’t know the age of Vorazun, but what do you think the implications this is to our maternity topic? Personally I thought it puts Protoss’ fertility age to about 600~700 yeas old, but I’m shooting in the dark here. Also, it’s possible that Raszagal had Vorazun in a much older age than usual.
It’s not about what could happened during those time. It’s about the ‘freshness’ of history in our mind. A history where people who witnessed it first hand is much different than a history we can only learn via text. It’s entirely possible that some Protoss who met with Khas was still alive until ‘recently’. The Khalai was created in the same time that the Nerazim was. Given how rigid the society structure was in StarCraft: Original, it felt weird to only been established a life time ago. How the empire was build and the Protoss’ golden age. The Arkships. By viewing those event as happened just a life time ago is just wrong for me. (I’m too tired to fully explore why, but I think you might understand it.)
A little off topic, if you’re correct about Protoss being fertile at 100 years old-ish, with the Protoss’ life span you could totally playing soccer with your great great great grandparents!!! (They’re alien, so I won’t hold against your estimation.)
Lastly, I think America is a special case. They didn’t build an entire new nation from scratch. They actually an offspring of the British. (I know I gross over a lot of detail, but I’m too tired.) So, if we look at other nation for example; each civilization was build over much longer life time. If anything, I think the Protoss’ empire should be compared to the China. A nation whose ancient history pile up and hindered their advancement. Granted, the collective mind and preserver would speed thing up a lot, but to compress it all in a lifetime is pushing it way too much.
The problem with the “new” Protoss timeline is that it was dramatically shortened after Brood War. In BW, Zeratul tells to Raszagal "Matriarch, I have served you for many millennia. ", implying that Protoss average lifespan is much much longer than 1000 years. Also, in Resurrection IV, around 2500, Taldarim says that he fought beside Adun 3000 years ago, which would be around -500.
The new timeline we have is awfully compressed for a long-lived race like the Protoss. The Eon of Strife ended only in -500, only 2000 years before the Dark Templar exile, which happens in 1500. If thousand of years seems many for humans, these timespans should be almost irrelevant for Protoss…
I think its unlikely that protoss, or any species, would have fertility age much past the age of physical maturity. From an evolutionary standpoint, theres no benefit and much risk to delaying fertility until old age.
That’s only because youre extrapolating from a human lifetime. The protoss don’t die after two generations, they just keep going and going unless something kills them. I believe in the Resurrection bonus mission where Stukov is de-infested, the dragoon hero mentions he knew and fought along side Adun. Trying to take a human lifespan and just stretch it to a thousand years is going to make things seem odd because they aren’t just humans stretched out.
Youre absolutely correct, but consider that the Nerazim are like the Americans. They share a lot of ancestry and historical events from the Europeans, but consider themselves to be a separate group.
Wow, I did not know that the contradictions get that bad. Metzen actually forgot Zeratul’s and Raszagal’s age when it was written in the manuals? I’ve been saying for years that Metzen kept forgetting what he wrote in the manuals and this proves that!
Metzen even admitted later that this wasn’t correct and was before they solidified the dates of protoss history. The 1500ish date for Adun’s death would be the canon one.
Normally the protoss lifespan is around 1000, making the easy human-protoss calculation of “divide by 10” to get the approximate age. Now, there IS a more modern issue that the span of the short story It Will End in Fire acts as if it takes place over the span of over 1000 years, which causes issues with Rohana’s age since she’d be WAY over 1000 then. Having said that I think that was just an error in the story.
No, I’m pretty sure that the Tal’darim was either a dung addicted group or a group of Protoss that Amon took in order to make his Hybrid or something.
In that case where do you think all these problems come from? Also, I’m not trying to fix Blizzard; I’m not even sure anybody with ability to make decisions is reading any of this… I’m just trying to prevent you from making the same mistake.
Now, regarding to the Overlord, I have one question; if somebody said the you can’t make any airplane capable of breaking the sound barrier and then one day somebody breaks the sound barrier with his experimental airplane, will you take that as a sign that god retcon his Physics?
As for Stukov, didn’t you told me once that the Zerg should be able to grow resistance toward Xel’naga Temple? Growing arm race and all? You do realize that Stukov infestation was much more different than Kerrigan, right? Also, after he was cured, Stukov was taken to Möbius and the cure pretty much render useless afterward.
I mean Raszagal probably had Vorazun in her middle age or Protoss equivalent thereof. Provide that they have one.
Well, my point is that the Protoss takes about Adun and Khas as if it was a story long in the past; their empire old by their standard. Their tradition and law and the conclave were in place for so long that life without them is unknown to them. However, all these story setting goes out the window if there is some Protoss with first hand knowledge of the Aeon of Strife around somewhere.
Seriously, Rohanna said that she was trained from birth to be a preserver. But if the Khala was just being invented recently like 100 or 200 year prior to her birth, or even 300 for that matter, do you think it makes sense culturally?
What history? Khas was only rediscover the Khala. And the teaching was being introduced and spread. The empire wasn’t even being build, yet. The Protoss was fresh out of the Aeon of Strife.
The people who build America already known what a civilization is. The Nerazim wasn’t when they were exiled.
The Aeon of Strife. The rediscovery of the Khala. The loss of the Xel’naga. Amon’s uplifting of them. All the major events that shaped the protoss that happened before the Dark Templar were exiled. They may have different views on this history, but it is part of theirs.
Also, keep in mind that the protoss were at the peak of their power during the exile. They were building the Arkships. I’d say the analogy stands.
Yes, those things are indeed important, but if I understand the time line correctly, the Protoss was, for all intents and purpose, in a stone age after the Aeon of Strife.
I think we have quite a different mental picture of Protoss status. Isn’t the exiled happen just after the Aeon of Strife end? Also, I thought the Protoss’ empire and civilization building didn’t occur until after the Khalai was firmly established, which happen after Adun… Hang on, Adun was present during the creation of the Arkship!!! @#$&
Does this mean that the Protoss stops the Aeon of Strife and went on to create a highly advanced extremely resource intensive spaceship all the while their caste system and the Khala were still in the process of integrate with their society? Not to mention the preserver! (BOOM)(The sound of my head explodes.)
Basically, I believe what you are saying is correct. This is a quick recap of Protoss history, as I understand it.
Almost at the start of the universe, Amon uplifts the Protoss, in this period they become civilized and already able to travel among the stars; then, when they start to fight among them, he leaves them. This starts the Eon of Strife, where the Protoss are basically in Stone Age, which lasted veeeery long (it is unknown if it is really an Eon, which I believe it is around a bilion of years). Then, at around -500 Khas rediscovers the Khala and reunites the Protoss: they quickly rediscover their old civilization and rebuild their empire. In this period of time they build the Arkships, create the Conclave and establish the Khala. When in 1500, the Dark Templar are exiled and Adun sacrifices himself, the Khala is basically an almost new discovery, but it is already considered paramount for the Protoss…
If we are to literally take the span of the Eon of Strife (1 billion of years, or even half of it) and the 3000 years from Khas, it would be like the human civilization (after around 2 millions of prehistory) would have started last year…
With this cronology, we have the humans coming out of prehistory around 3000 BC, while the Protoss come out of it only around 500 BC, making the human civilization older then the Protoss one! (even if they obviously evolved, or better re-evolved, at a much quicker pace, rapidly surpassing the human)
Putting the Dark Templar exile tens of thousand years ago and the Khala rediscovery hundreds of millenia ago would have made for much a compelling story, IMO, showing that the Protoss civilization was really stagnant and unwilling to change and adapt. In this way the Conclave and Aldaris would have been much more realistic in their stubborn decisions.
I believe that something like the SW Republic would have worked well (that thing lasted for more than 10000 years, and a lot of their members were simply human!)
![:smiley:](https://d212vo0owly06i.cloudfront.net/en/sc2/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=6" ":smiley:")
(even if they obviously evolved, or better re-evolved, at a much quicker pace, rapidly surpassing the human)