The lurker is the only siege unit in this game that does not need infantry / army support with it to fight. Which is totally silly. Military strategy is based on the fact that siege weapons need to be defended by infantry to be effective because they are not very mobile and fragile.
These rules are followed by Tank Terran, Colossus Protoss, Disruptor Protoss but not by Lurker Zerg.
Why blizzard, why give to zerg an op siege unit which have so much mobility and can burrow / unborrow in less than a second and donāt respect the standard military strategie ?
So you should nerf the burrow / unborrow speed of Lurker and his movespeed and / or up counter of Lurker like ghost.
29 Likes
you see the 2 game of clem vs reynor and thread open.
have seen the first game ? bio (t1-1,5)> ultra (t3)
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Yeah i see the game where Reynor going 95 drone when he take a all in his face + on a small map.
Reynor donāt understand RTS strategy, heās just carried by his race.
He only spam drone, spam lurker then free win because lurker is a stupid OP unit.
5 Likes
I would argue that instead of Lurker (that is not OP by the way), we should discuss why WM are OP.
Those low cost, high reward, low babysitting units are the real OP thing in SC2.
13 Likes
if you understand the game so well switch to zerg and show what you can do.
Real talk reynor disassembles you.
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Why lurkers are OP: Because Reynor is at the keyboard.
13 Likes
Lurkers are fineā¦ stop LOL A-moving your army into a Lurker sieged position.
1 Like
Lurker move faster than bioball under stim and take 0,5 sec to unburrow and 0,7 to burrow. So you are force to fight in Lurker sieged position because they move faster than your all army and siege x4 faster than any Terran siege unit.
3 Likes
Totally off topic.
We ever gonna hit up this bo3?
And the same guy that is sitting comfortably at Aligulac top 1 spot.
edit: And Reynor has 700 more mmr in zvt than Clem, Aligulac gave 75% chance of victory to Reynor, so no surprises.
6 Likes
Lurkers have no real ground counter in ZVP and ZVT. Thatās why they are OP. Theoretical things like immortals, tanks, etc just donāt actually work in practice. Those things get crushed by pretty much anything supporting the lurkers (lings for example kill all the lurker hard counters pretty easily) and you can mass lurkers much faster than you can mass their counters.
The basic issue with the lurker is mostly cost. It really should be a 4 supply unit for its strength and HP. In addition, the total cost of 150/150 for a lurker is a joke. An oracle costs 150/150. A banshee costs 150/150. The lurker is in an entirely different class as a unit.
A lurker should cost more like 200/150 or 250/150 at 4 supply in all fairness.
10 Likes
really bad argument.
- both are harass units
- mutas cost 100/100. reality check: build 2 orcal, 1 banshee, 6-8 mutas ā¦
you see the mistake ?
1 banshee to 6 mutas for harass + the banshee is finished earlier than the 6mutasā¦
but yes letās make 1 to 1 comparisons if we have asymmetric play.
4 Likes
Soā¦Reynor makes lurker looks broken I guess.
Tank cost 150/125, has 13 range when sieged and takes 3 supply. Can be built after having a factory with tech lab. Lurker cost 150/150, has 10 range (after upgrade which cost 150/150, requires Hive). I think everyone knows all these.
So, for a unit that has 3 less range than tanks, requires hive and expensive upgrades to be effective, on top of all Zerg units that are cost and supply inefficient, I donāt see why Lurker is particularly OP across the board here. Yes it can burrow and unburrow very fast after upgrade but thats behind a hive. Liberator also counters lurkers.
Those pros will always make units in the game looks super broken and needs nerf.
5 Likes
You should try using proper grammar because I donāt understand you still. Its like you never took english in school or something and donāt understand what the role of punctuation is.
Banshees are actually 150/100. I think i meant to say libs but typed banshees or something.
Harass vs fighting units doesnāt matter. In a game of economy, the price of a unit is reflective of its overall value in its role. Thatās how pricing works. When you go to the store and are pricing out chicken vs potato chips, youāre asking is the 3 dollars I spend on chicken for a main course going to give me the same satisfaction as 3 dollars I spend on chips as a snack. The price of an item reflects its overall value in its role. When youāre looking at libs vs void rays, they have different roles but clearly void rays didnāt have the right value for the price. So blizzard reduced the price. When two units are priced exactly the same, the game makers ae telling you that to their respective armies those units are of equal value. Lings and zealots are priced exactly the same (for supply) and again their values are about equal to their respective armies. And so on and so on.
Is the 150/150 oracle as good a harassment unit as the 150/150 lurker is a fighting unit? The answer is no. Is the lib or tank as good a unit overall as the lurker? The answer is no. If they were equal value, then lets trade. Protoss will give zerg oracles so they can harass and protoss can get mid game lurkers. Of course, thatās a horrible trade because its clear that one unit is just a much better overall unit.
5 Likes
You know the funny thing is, the way to beat mass lurker is to just mass the better siege unit: siege tanks.
8 Likes
Sure, if the Lurker stays in range of siege tanks, rather than A) blinding them with Viper blinding clouds and running into their minimum attack range and absolutely annihilating them with instant-burrow, or B) retreating out of the attack range of siege tanks.
Tanks are balanced based off the fact that theyāre slow to produce, have a minimum attack range, require spotting units to use their maximum attack range, require anywhere between 2.9-3.2 seconds to siege and 2.5-2.8 seconds to unsiege, and are slow moving units.
This means you can abuse their positioning like crazy, and they have clear cut counters when engaging them.
This isnāt the case for Lurkers. They have no real clear cut counters for direct engagements other than ranged Liberators, and thatās only cause they donāt hit air units. They donāt have friendly fire that can be abused (which is fine for lurkers and the way they attack, it would make them infeasible to use), they donāt have any drawbacks like slow movement speed or inability to reposition quickly.
The only drawback they have is that they canāt attack above ground, which is nullified entirely by the fact that Lurkers literally move as fast as a Hellion, and burrow as fast as a widow mine, without the draw back of needing a full second after to acquire the target and attack, and without the caveat that they need to also spend 30 seconds reloading. The only downside to using them is they require hive tech to use all their upgrades.
8 Likes
I kinda of agree with you, especially on ZVP. Protoss is the weakest race in anti-cloak. Observer is low on health and easily get target down during the fight. On the other hand, observerās production requires robot which makes the mass production hard. Terran is much better against Lurker as Tank out-ranges Lurker and Radar is free in late games. In stead to nerf Lurker, I prefer to buff other races, especially Protoss.
2 Likes
When Zerg gets to 3-3 Lurkers with both Hive upgrades, itās reasonable to expect Terrans to have things like ranged Libs, speeds Banshees, Yamato, Ghosts with cloakā¦ in fact Ghosts did okay for Clem, Reynor just had better macro. He got to 100 drones untouched multiple times. That makes a huge difference and thatās how much you need to afford all of this, and you also need creep. Lurkers are absurdly efficient against bio though but teching that far should absolutely be rewarding against basic tier 1 units.
7 Likes
Siege Tank:
150/125/3 - 32s build time
Auto Attack - 20.27 DPS
Siege Attack - 18.69 DPS
13 Range
Requires no special tech route or structures
Requires no upgrades to be useful
Lurker:
150/150/3 - 42 second build time total
No Auto Attack
Siege Attack - 14 DPS
8 (+2) Range
Requires lair tech and two tech structures
Requires 2 Hive Tech (Tier 3) upgrades to be useful totaling 300/300 - 114s
Yup, Lurkers should literally be better than siege tanks given the investment; but Siege Tanks outrange them substantially and Lurkers are easily zoned out by liberators
INB4: But Viper Abduct D:
Solutions:
EMP
Snipe
Having more than 3-4 liberators
Donāt let lurkers run up to you, itās been shown multiple times that Marine Marauder cleans up lurkers quite well on equal upgrades if you out position the Zerg (which is what Terranās pride themselves on in TvT anyway - Positional Gameplay)
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