That’s a 1:2 Ratio of Army Value, Thor to Brood Lords.
Why doesn’t Terran need to build any air units to deal with Brood Lords?
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Thors are designed to counter them.
They should at least be supply effective vs them.
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Its pretty standard that humans build giant mechs to deal with giant aliens. I see nothing wrong.
In costs it is also very efficient(300/200 vs 600/500). That wouldn’t be a problem if thors weren’t as good overall against zerg
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Thors are easily countered by lings. And not even hive tech crack driven lings. Just regular old speed lings
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If you don’t mind me point out, this idea is flawed because army value does not consider usage and unit function. This is similar to saying that a 25 minerals ling (just 1) is able to kill a 400 minerals CC and so there is something wrong.
The function of Brood Lords is to push a siege and edge the enemy into committing to a battle. If there is sufficient army keeping the enemy at a distance, they will gradually gain too much value from the free broodlings and damage dealt.
Thors, on the other hand, is intended to be an additional option for anti-air for the T. Otherwise, they will be such with just Vikings and the hard-counter marine options. Though their damage is high, their attack speed is just moderate. Therefore a group of low value units hitting the Thor (e.g. lings / roaches) will likely make quick work of it.
Both have very different purposes and you cannot simply just use resource cost to determine the quality of the unit.
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Your first paragraph features a fantastic false equivalency logical fallacy. A Zergling counters a Command Center…Oh, come on, spare me.
The Brood Lord cannot perform its basic function because it’s instantly hard countered by a unit half its value.
Other commenters are saying that Zerglings counter Thors, which is absolutely hilarious because Terrans just spam Hellbats and Siege Tanks alongside their Thors, and keep their army clumped up, which instantly deletes all ground units.
It’s pretty disgusting when you run the Unit Tester, assuming max upgrades for both sides, (which will basically never happen because Zerg needs double the upgrades to include the Broodlings, and has a very steep tech tree disadvantage to reach 3/3 Air Upgrades compared to Terran) you will find, horrifyingly, that 5 Thors and 4 Hellbats counters 12 Brood Lords with roughly 3-4 Thors and 1-2 Hellbats surviving every single time with ZERO MICRO because Thors have a range advantage of 1, and Air Priority on Brood Lords during the engagement.
That’s a 38 Supply, 1900 Minerals, and 1000 Gas Terran Army defeating a 48 Supply, 3600 Mineral, 3000 Gas Zerg Army! (2900 vs 6600 Total Resources)
How is this even remotely balanced? Again, that’s beyond a staggering 1:2 Army Value difference. Plus, Terran gets near infinite mules in the late game which means the minerals are basically negligible to them.
Terran should have to build air units to deal with Brood Lords, plain and simple, and the Thor needs to be nerfed either by having their range reduced by 1, or by costing much more gas.
What happened to this game?
Terran Mech is a “Turtle Until You Have 12 Thors No Skill A-Move Style” with vastly superior units.
Plus, you know this game is in a sorry state for Zerg when the only way to beat Mech is to make Infestors and steal their army because all other Zerg Units have no leg to stand on in combat. If you can’t beat 'em, join 'em! I guess…
This game is a joke right now for Zerg, but who cares, right? Zerg has Serral, and that means Zerg is fine, even though globally only 26.93% of Grandmasters are Zerg compared to 40.06% Protoss, and 30.94% Terran. (2.07% Random)
The Thor was buffed initially to deal with the new Tempest rework, but those Tempest changes were scrapped, and then they just left the Thor in its current state with 11 range vs a Brood Lords 10 range.
Thors need to be nerfed!
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This is amusing because you are insisting that if unit value should be equal, and my claim is that a lot of other factors are involved in the decision making of unit value. There is another thread where someone claimed that banelings are one of the most cost inefficient unit so they are basically useless and we shouldn’t bother making them.
I am just saying that the unit’s function and also how it is used will go a long way to determine whether it is “fair” or not. If you disagree, that is fine, because it still doesn’t change the fact that it does make a difference. This difference is even more obvious when you compare a pro level gameplay vs a non-pro level gameplay.
I’m actually surprised you claimed as such. If you actually looked into what false equivalence means: “an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning”.
A good example would be:
"They're both living animals that metabolize chemical energy. Therefore there's little difference between having a pet cat and a pet snail." The "equivalence" is in factors that are not relevant to the animals' suitability as pets.
If we look at your claim which is “WHY DOES 1 THOR KILL 2 BROOD LORDS? That’s a 1:2 Ratio of Army Value, Thor to Brood Lords.”, you are basically committing the fallacy yourself by claiming that since the army value of 1 Thor and 2 Brood Lords are the same, they should be equal in terms of who wins the fight. In actuality, it doesn’t.
I wouldn’t even want to go down the path to start dissecting each individual paragraph’s fallacy that is involved.
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Anyway, I have said my piece. So this will be my last post regarding this matter.
Agree, or in this case disagree, with what you want, because I am not here to change your view. You pointed out a concern regarding cost, I just showed you that there are more factors involved than just purely cost. You are free to decide what you wish, but know that it doesn’t change what is a fact.
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Just dont build BL… Nobody build them anymore. Yes, Terran has to trade better against low tier Zerg units… cuz they are reproductable, but NOT AGAINST BL!!! A longest tech path in game, only ground attacker, one of the slowest if not slowest flyer, lowest DPS and no burst DMG with most upgrades (2 air + 2 ground) and plenty counters as they are Armored, Biological and Massive… A BroodLord should be a unit ,If Zerg gets there they deserve to win, You cannt skip tech to them or rush as 4-5 Carriers, or BC!!! THIS UNIT IS TRASH
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If Zerg can’t build Brood Lords, and since Ultras are trash against Mech too, that means Zerg basically has no Tier 3 attacking units, and there’s no point to build a Hive except for upgrades.
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Because Blizzard decided that Thor should be Terran anti-Broodlord unit because Vikings $uck at this job for multiple reasons. However they nerfed Thor anti-muta AA and as games of Dream vs Rouge shows Thors doesn’t counter mass muta. In fact nothing Terran does.
And Thor has become OP in TvT because of its long range single target AA attack.
What should happen is Thor long range single target AA attack removed, thor AA splash attack radius nerf reverted and thor armour nerf reverted, and Terran got either old HSM back or Liberator AA attack nerf reverted.
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You want all those changes right now or you can wait for September?
It’s worse than that. If the fight is 1-on-1 red rover style then 1 thor can kill almost 5 broodlords…
Blizz removed BL leash range micro even though it had been in the game since WoL and this was AFTER giving thor insane buffs to AA dmg vs BL and range advantage…
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Because vikings suck vs Corrupters.
And also thors javelin attack has been nerfed hard, and they are much weaker against mutas.
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Vipers… Vipers are our friends. But Yeah its pretty shame that Zerg, a brainless fast aliens needs a spell casters… but thats a design fail.
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straight fight yes, but if you fight Viking with Corruptors than there no help for you
Thors are designed to counter every unit in the game. Except for themselves.
Yeah if you have 20+ lings hop on one thor. Mix in 1-2 hellbats and all that goes out the drain.
They couldn’t have just stopped at javelin. They had to make thors counter massive air too. Their attack damage is high, and their attack speed is really fast too after the BUFF. It takes a large group of low value units to trade efficiently against thors, and roaches don’t counter thors in any case.
Yes the purpose of broodlords is purposely putting yourself at a disadvantage. The purpose of the thor is to counter all things Zerg until they have infestors or vipers. Brood lords are pretty much only made in the end game when Zerg is pushing creep with spores and lurkers.
This guy gets it. Fortunately, the solution for Zerg is to literally steal units from Terran LOL. Not exactly ideal or fair, but you do what you gotta do to win with this game design.
Yeah, it’s called brood lords sucking. You go ahead and make brood lords to beat thors and tell me how it goes. The only answer left is to make spellcasters.
Vikings do bonus armor damage. Corruptors are armored and do bonus massive damage. Vikings are not massive LOL. Vikings counter corruptors…
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Those are all terrible suggestions.
If anything, Javelin Missiles should be removed because it is far too specialized for such an expensive and slow unit, and it varies from useless to broken (particularly in unintended cases like Thor vs Voids) depending on the situation. HIP is a much better fit for the unit.
HSM was also a broken ability and should never be returned to the game. Caster spells are not intended to stack without penalty like HSM does.
There are three reasons for that:
- They were unaware of the bug.
- The bug wasn’t commonly abused until shortly before it’s removal.
- The bug explicitly broke an intended counter relationship, which is unnacceptable.
No they are not.
Not in practice. Vikings have a slight advantage over Corruptors at best, but this can easily flow into the Corruptor’s favor at higher supply counts based on the overkill of each unit or other factors such as how units get targeted.
Corruptors are much easier to mass, and Zerg has much better caster support for the Corruptors that can easily flip the fight the other way; so this is often a bad fight for Terran.
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Broods were never meant to be the answer to thors and only functioned perfectly as such due to a long standing bug that gave them an unintended +3 range. Sorry you can’t steamroll everything with BL Infestor comps anymore.
Honestly Thor should only have the splash (anti-light aoe) anti-air attack.
Vikings are the anti-armored anti-air terran unit and do that role really well.
Vikings own corruptors hard, go test it in a LOTV unit tester.
Out of all the air units currently in LOTV the vikings wreck corruptors the most.
If corruptors have 3 armor upgrades then Vikings are pretty much the only air unit that can efficiently kill corruptors.
Zerg tier 3 is garbage since ultras are trash and broodlords are near trash.
Vipers are cool but HTemplar/tempest and ghosts/vikings/thors easily murder vipers.
Cracklings are neat but easily countered by a ton of units by that point.
Lurker upgrades at tier 3 are actually really nice but lurkers are easy to counter.
3 Likes