What balance issues I see Zerg has

General Discussion
1

One major things I find annoying both Terran and toss can easily build on Zerg expansion. Plus’s how long it takes and cost try to build to closer block expos.

I would like overload spew creep from beginning so they can protect expos. Without rushing towards it. Plus time takes overlord to even get on smaller gives Terran or toss enough time to have couple anti air.

I don’t see much offensive play outside super rush spine attack but be very much weaker then toss cannon rush very economy crushing on Zerg part.

I think faster tech path or ability to produce queen and upgrade tech lvl is needed. But I think anyone fighting against Zerg has this window of opportunity that is sadly built in game.

Which so wrong opportunity that is not player base but game design of poor structure needs be fixed. One reason long tech path that Zerg has.

Lair adds 57 secs and it doesn’t give Zerg any units just another way to unlock other units. I feel doing 57 secs we can’t build anti air so if Zerg used roach warren.

Remove ravage extend build time and just stack that roach warren and after it’s built it unlocks spire, hydra, infestor pit, Nydus pit and all t2 upgrades.

After infestor pit you build the hive.

So in end this allows Zerg be on same tech path air units vs air units. Since economy determines how many units have this won’t jump Zerg army count but rather different type units.

Now toss has same problem twilight council that also needs to be looked at.

2

If this was truly an issue it would have been resolved 10 years ago

2 Likes
3

I like this i would suggest making hatch tech overlord only drop 2x2 area of creep, which can only fit 1 spine/spore and also clears fast if ovie moves/dies. Lair improves creep spread to normal

4

But why everyother races has ability build and speed of over lord won’t make until stalkers or marines in place.

Also if u think over speed might cause problem just increase its build time to 100.

All this really does allow Zerg protect its secondary from Protoss or Terran messing with natural.

Be very hard Zerg push spin cannon rush for time it takes and how ineffective spines are.

5

I agree the natural block is bs. To me its as bad as proxy rack cannon rush because it is so much cheaper and causes a zerg to spread out faster than they really wanted to. I mean honestly if a terran or toss really wanted to they could easily block to expo for 200 minerals and severely delay or spread a zerg out and make some of the early game timing hits even more you have to hold this or just lose

1 Like
6

If overlords can spred creep from get go would prevent this.

No one running lair get this because it hardly ever used offense. But almost everyone place it over natural to protect from Protoss cheep cannon rush or Terran placing something just so they cancel it.

There other things I think concept of lair be removed adds minut or 57 secs it gives no unit it blocks queen from being made. While no other two races except Protoss twilight council. I would remove that as well.

7

All of which are strategical decisions to be made and reacted to. There’s nothing wrong with Proxy rax, cannon rushing or blocking a hatchery (or getting hatch-blocked) by players. It’s a question if the cost is worth the delay - sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t. And though I’m sure there’s several people who disagree, the reality is that there’s nothing inherently overpowered about any of those strategies.

Proxy Rax puts your buildings at risk, and if it’s held you’re delaying production by flying back, and potentially resources sunk into reactors/tech-labs, bunkers and the like.

Cannon rush dedicates early resources to delaying and teching into cannons, which functionally serve no purpose for any form of actual tech, meaning you’re delaying your own tech too; such that weighing the risk of delaying your own tech has to be worth it against your ability to delay your opponent’s tech too.

In every single scenario, there is always a trade off that has to be considered. It’s part of the game, and an important part to RTS in general. All strategies are valid, even if they’re not necessarily good strategies. The only time they’re not “valid” is if it’s cheating, such as map-hacking.

The only reason a strategy should be removed or nerfed, is if it’s so broken that it’s literally never winnable. Frankly, none of the above are anywhere close to that, let alone something so simple as blocking a hatchery, which can be done with just a probe - not even a pylon. So why remove valid strategies from the game?

Again, why though? Why remove strategy from the game? There’s literally no reason to do this, and as I mentioned before, it would only stop buildings, but doesn’t stop probes from blocking hatcheries.

Orbital Command Center and Reactors both do the same thing; neither unlocks any tech, and both stop units from being made while they’re under construction, unlike the lair, which still produces larvae and thus units, and the twilight council, which doesn’t prevent production at all.

Yet removing any of these (OC, Lair, Twilight, Reactor, etc) could feasibly be game-breaking for a multitude of reasons.

2 Likes
8

One having Zerg spread creep from over lords doesn’t take strategy away but adds a counter to it.

Zerg has longest tech path and does two major problems it forces Zerg to be defensive and leaves small windows that can be easily exploited.

Now quicker tech paths as long it doesn’t surpass Terran or toss. Which doesn’t leave window gap it gives zerg more options and not be defensive.

Now you might look at toss they might have problem they might but if you remove twilight council then whole queen nerf would be none existent since they would have feed back to counter queens.

9

How does it not remove a strategy? There is no feasible way a probe or SCV can move over from and place down a structure before the overlord gets to the natural and begins laying creep down.

As I mentioned before, a probe or SCV itself could feasibly block, but that’s incredibly limited at the best of times.

Given the amount of units that would need direct rebalancing to be balanced around the new tech tree, just because lair tech was removed, it would be literally game-breaking. You would almost have to rework half the game to make this function. And that’s assuming it doesn’t cause more problems.

Again, just one of many issues, and not even the main issue in contention. That you really don’t see any issues whatsoever with this is incredibly concerning.

2 Likes
10

You know to say Zerg not allowed spread creep just so Terran or toss can spend 100 minerals and Terran can cancel only costing 50 strategy.

Well Terran wall is stopping my strategy on rushing. Just because it counters or blocks strat but makes its fair is wrong.

Shows you just want your side. It has nothing do with balance.

If I spend 100 minerals to race that is design expand but if can’t be weak and will fall behind and has no counter to stop blocking seems problem.

Zerg has longest tech path that leaves wholes in defense that can easily exploited.

Tech path needs be looked at since most of thing was added as balance no longer true. Spire 70 secs because mutas was at one time hard fight but heart swarm change that where they buffed counters and nerfed then to ground.

11

Because unlike Zerg, Terran and protoss can’t produce anywhere nearly as quickly. Rushes still work for Zerg though.

Lmao. You’re entitled to think that, but it’s not true.

It’s hillarious because:

A) A fast expansion is supposed to be a risk, not a guarantee - despite that, it’s standard, because there’s little (not no) risk involved. One of those risks is that you get blocked by a pylon or something else, and subsequently have a harder time defending.

B) There are counters already; Dark, for example, goes for an earlier expansion at 15 (might be 16) instead of 17 or 18 supply, specifically to prevent a protoss from blocking his expansion. There are strategical choices that get made, even at that early stage of the game.

That you feel you shouldn’t have to adjust your strategy to counter your opponent’s strategy is very telling of the sort of person you are.

The longest tech path, yes. Holes in defense, no. Not if it’s played correctly.

Mutas got stronger in Heart of the swarm with the introduction of Rapid Regeneration, not weaker. They actually directly introduced the widow mine because the Mutalisk was so absurdly strong against Terran, and then subsequently did the same thing with the liberator in LOTV since it was still a problem at the time.

Protoss at the time at least had Photon overcharge to deal with them back in HotS. In Legacy, Mutas are still really, really good against a Protoss that doesn’t open stargate.

In fact, the counters to Mutas are exactly the same now, as they were back in HotS - if not weaker than they ever were before. Archons and phoenixes are functionally identical. The widow mine is weaker than it’s ever been. Liberators are weaker than they have ever been too, and thors are identical to their HotS form for the purposes of dealing with Mutas.

Ultimately what made Mutas less common wasn’t that Mutas are bad (they’re not) but that Hydras are better, and generally stronger in a straight up fight than Mutas are. That, combined with the econ changes (12 worker start specifically) made Mutas less favourable.

2 Likes
12

for casual lvl the problem is that Zerg is no longer the late game race.
Zerg ultra late comp is: 2 bases more than the opponent, without passive def advantage.
possibly also a problem is that they do not balance around zerg but around serral…

i agree. one reason why i don’t play ZvP anymore and just leave the game.
the whole match up is very one sided and forced.

13

I think 12 worker as a whole favors Toss and Terra more than zerg.
The parallel production starts earlier, and T/P have quick access to harass through short tec paths. + the easy def of wall.

1 Like
14

it would be so nice if more maps actually let zerg wall properly.

why change the creep radius if not ti let this stuff work out better!!

and if the crawlers actually made full walks instead lf being circleable come on.

1 Like
15

lol what. Half this game is filled with stuff that has been an issue for 10 years.

1 Like
16

What’s hole does Zerg has because long tech paths.

  1. 90% of Zerg units need some type upgrade to be ok unit.
    Lings
    Banes
    Roaches
    Hydras
    Lurkers
    Ultras
    Infestor( only decent spell is np) other spells need high micro that needs to work.

Biggest problem anti air Zerg has ravagers and queens but none can hurt Terran or even punish air only push them off.

Zerg is only hurts economy by building static defense. It cost drone, the larva that replaces drone and money to build static defense.

Terran worker time, now when facing Zerg they don’t need instant so they build 12 turrets off one worker. Since long tech paths give them more time to prep without straining there economy.

Toss is about same as Terran but can do it quicker.

That’s why queens need be a lot stronger in anti air department.

1 Like
17

In a perfect world i’d agree, but at this point it’s more just a necessity. Protoss can outproduce workers on equal bases due to chrono, at least until 3 hatch injects, and Terran has MULEs.

It’s a risk the Zerg can’t not take unless they’re doing it for a specific reason.