Units that need a buff

no

no

its pretty obvious you are a zerg player.

i do agree with protoss ones though i think those units dont really have their place. except for adept which is basically protoss reaper

The Thor is the only terran ground unit that can take down supported broodlords, just like blink stalkers are the only protoss ground unit that can do that. If you took away blink, or that extra 1 range, the stalkers and the Thors wouldn’t be able to reach the broodlords just sitting behind their frontline and their broodlings. That would leave just Tempests or Vikings as alternatives, knowing that corruptors tend to have the edge vs vikings (which becomes even more acute considering the lategame Z casting possibilities, with parasitic bomb and fungle) ; and that Tempest are a liability against anything ground.

Bad idea if you ask me. :confused:

The devs nerfed the 8 armor ultralisk to 7 for a reason : 3 ultras was the critical game ending mass in ZvT in 2015-early 2016. The whole match-up reduced itself to mid or early terran allins (a lot of them abusing the strength of early reapers). Ultras are extremely durable (more than any ground unit in fact), but if they become too durable that’s gamebreaking in some MU, as the MMM counterpart is much more fitted to the glasscanon definition. That’s why the devs felt the little push-up the ultras needed wasn’t durability, but that quite measured offcreep speed boost. They don’t want the ultralisks to mean the end of the game by themselves in ZvT ; yet good Z can exploit that durability to draw the enemy’s fire while 80 banes are going for the kill just behind (and that’s actually a quite certain way to kill a PF), or to induce thors or liberators that will then be useless against a mass lings, or have the terran increase his marauder count while preparing to add more hydras just afterwards.

As for the ultralisk requiring to be positioned (in front of your army), I’m glad to hear it as a lot of players tend to consider the unit is as a-clic as can be. It’s a good thing that a least a bit of positioning is required to make optimal use of them, that’s what can set apart good players from a bit less good, and should be encouraged instead of discouraged through patching. :slight_smile:

I leave to others the discussion of your protoss proposals.

I agree and ppl make entire topics regarding WM but I feel that at this point, to touch WM is too much to ask. That was one idea, there are better suggestions out there.

Not only that but Lurkers now have the same range and comes from Hydras that fits the Hydra Viper composition instead of building Corruptors that not every matchup will require, and BL uses air upgrades, they are slower, is more supply heavy, the only advantage is that they fly and in case of Terran it’s not an advantage at all. All of that makes BL obsolete. And yes, I completely agree Thors are stupid strong.

While I agree that only buffing the BL and leave Tempest as it is would make impossible for Protoss to play Zerg. But in regards of Thors, they are waaay too much of a hardcounter to BL while being waaaay too good vs ground compositions only needing little ground tanking support. 7 Hellbats and the rest of Thors/Tanks beats any Zerg and Protoss composition, only vulnerable to Disruptors.

They are only extremely durable vs Terran Bio compositions because not at all vs Protoss or Zerg. And what I suggest have no intention to affect Bio, only heavy damage that Ultras are extremely vulnerable, don’t you agree?

best buff mothership can get is removal from the game,no one would mourn

Agree with most what you said, but not with this. Ultras are very good timing Flex switch, zerg usually don’t know how to use them.

Pushing back will make Ultras op and in general very weird skill.

Zerg besides Mutas, and spell casters don’t need to over micro other units. It makes sense that sometimes you need to micro units.

Thors are giants slayer. And so they’re somewhat giants themselves, and share some of the issues you described for the Ultralisk (without hellbats tanking in the front, they would fall rather quickly to LBH BL, but if you put them too far behind, they won’t be in range of the BLs but only of the broodlings). Their size make them easily concaved, while themselves quite slowly get in line. They take quite a long time to change targets. And most of all (and contrary to the ultralisk) they’re slow and long to produce. So while they’re certainly powerful upfront, can make thor heavy strats quite vulnerable to runbies, harass and counterattacks.

As for beating Thor tanks hellbats in TvP, though playing just like vs bio will certainly end up with awful trades ; as a protoss you have a variety of quite convincing anti-mech options. There was a thread dealing about that if I remember well, though the author in fact wished more to whine than to get answers. Scroll it a bit, you’ll see some suggestions are repeated by different players. :slightly_smiling_face:

As for beating that as a Z : just do vipers, cast some blinding clouds on the tanks/thors/hellbats position, and then aclic your banes and lings timely enough and you’ll be amazed. And it works with LBH and RR as well, as long as you’ve mastered your viper-army coordination. It takes some micro, but the Viper is the game’s chad unit against mech. :smiley:

Ultralisks are indeed a poor choice vs P, and situational vs Z. We agree on that diagnosis.

However :

  • It’s not necessarily bad for the game’s variety that some units have more place in some match-ups than in others. Ghosts for example are important in TvP and TvZ, but infrequent in TvT. Same for gladepts being more common in PvZ and PvP than PvT. And lurkers more common in ZvZ and PvZ. And that’s fine.

  • The protoss, are just since two months seeing the light after years of 40-45% PvZ winrate. Do we want them to go back at 45% right away by buffing ZvP ? It’s too early for that, let’s see first if they stabilize around that 50% and if it’s still above it, or under, then we’ll discuss.

At least that’s the way I see things. :slightly_smiling_face:

Personally I want the Mutalisk to be reworked or fixed.

The problem with them is that they are a harass unit and once enemy gets proper counters, they are pretty much wasted gas.

If they either allow Mutalisk to become a combat unit after the harass phase

OR

allow Mutalisk to also evolve into Broodlords like Brood War allowed Muta’s to mutate into Guardians.

For god sake, they are MUTA-lisks.

If it wasnt for the VR buffs I would say hell no to BL buffs

But with them, yes

Plus BL are one of the few reasons to ever build Tempests

if anything change the speed of the broodlord at this point, if we could micro them better it might give us more of a chance

I agree reaper needs somekind of buff in the midgame…

Though its a tricky one to pull out if you want it to be useful…

A weaker WM like ability could be useful in keeping a bit a map control.

Here are a few things that could interesting

  • Nitro pack comeback
  • Irradiate like ability
  • Parasite like ability
  • Contamination like ability
  • Repair like ability
  • Blind like ability
  • WM like ability
  • Some creep clearing ability
    Etc…

I have a feeling that the developer always has Ultra’s push priority in mind, they just can’t figure out a good way to implement it. Like should the attacking zerlings stop attacking and let the ultras in?

As for tempest, I think they are plenty viable with the new ability. Not just the spine forest, a few of them can start harassing turrets and planetary fortresses and stuffs.

Protoss would build you a monument if you would be able to remove MS and bring back Arbiters.

:grinning: And after that whine and nerf contuniue cause it unfair some terran trade scan to detect deathball

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just as a little idea.
Thor becomes cheaper by -50/-50 and can only attack air. Then Terra will have the benefit of a unit that is only good in one thing and cannot be used as an all round weapon.

btw if i remember the statement was always that IT was too strong and not BL. and the Thor range was increased because of Tempest not because of BL…
currently it is useless to build BL. Ultra are encouraged simply because they are not so slow, can take more, and are equally strong (not just after 3 attacks to stack Broodlings) and can be used better.

Ultra are slow, this is the main problem, i’d like a ability that build up speed as long as they don’t change direction, it would fit the concept.

For toss late… well, late toss doesn’t feel so much toss to me, they are meant to be a psyonic elite race, give us some spells please, maybe a upgrade of adepts (adepts archon? with different abilities), more spells on the mothership or some spells in tempests.
It’s not a balance request, it’s the concept which is lacking

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I don’t think they will do that,ever

Agree with everything except ultra and adept.

The ultra one would be downright broken, their main issue has always been how clunky they are in an army, they should just be able to either push through all units or just walk over them.

I feel like adepts are fine as a harass only unit. Zealots and stalkers are good enough transitions.

Just a note for the reaper, DO NOT GIVE THEM MINES, widow mines are already enough, maybe an upgrade that gives them back their ability to decimate buildings and increases their damage significantly? That way they could be late game harasser as well.

Also cannot agree with the mothership change enough, even as a zerg player I must say it is sad to see a mothership in action when you have 5 or more overseers. I would downrightup their damage significantly and make them unabductable.

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You still have to admit, that while it is true that Thors are the most reliable way, they are way too reliable. They just counter brood-lords way too hard, and that would not be a bad thing if they were not as good against everything else. I actually believe Thor should be a primarily anti air or anti ground unit, as it stands it fits too many roles.

Call me crazy but if a group of ultras stands on top of a siilarly large group of Thors, the ultras should win especially considering Thor is ranged and has anti air capabilities to boot.

I would rather they buffed vikings (probably range) and tone down the Thor rather than buffing BLs. Also,and you are forgeting, Ghosts are actually pretty good vs brood lords too.

Thor rant over

Burrow should be baseline

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what you a Reaper’s role that we want to give it in a bio army though?

Adepts are awkward because shading is basically replaced by charge and gas is very scarce for protoss. I’m not really sure what else you can do to make it fit into a good mid-late core army without completely overshadowing the Zealot.

Ultralisk just need to walk/push allied unit out of the way. It can never be truly balanced if its performance is being dictated by how dumb it decides to path.