Ultimate Evolution vs Double Biomass

Co-op Missions Discussion
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Abathur is hands down one of the strongest (if not THE strongest) commander(s). His Ultimate Evolutions, aka Brutalisk and Leviathans, combined with Biomass synergy make his early game strong, mobility strong, late game strong.

Indeed Evolution Master

When it comes to Abby, there really isn’t much to be discussed usually on the forum, especially in terms of his 2nd Mastery set’s competitiveness. That being UEs are so darn good, it is hard to be on their level… seemingly ever.

  • Essence Hoarder forces a 0/30 split compared to other prestiges and that’s really about it.
  • The Limitless can benefit from Double Biomass Chance but at such a cost.

So I wanted to discuss at what point would Double Biomass be competitive, here’s my thoughts.

Basic information:

  • Symbiote Mastery adds 0.66 dmg and 6.66 carapace per point, this adds up to a total of 20 dmg and 200 carapace at full mastery.
  • Symbiote normally does 20 dmg with an attack speed of 1sec, carapace duration of 8sec with a cooldown of 20sec.
  • Double Biomass can go as high as 45% wit full mastery. And it is a mutually exclusive event, (ie. you can’t get 100% biomass A, as well as 200% of biomass A. They don’t overlap, so you get either the normally gained 100% OR you get the 200% per mastery.)
  • Virulent Nests (Level 3 Talent) doubles the biomass dropped. So on Brutal, this rate would be 2.5 Biomass ==> 5 Biomass. This is also the reason why it is crucial to lure enemies to be damage by Toxic Nests at least once before killing it.

Let’s do some calculations:

Symbiote Mastery Ultimate Evolutions

  • The boosted Symbiote does (20dmg + 20mastery) / 1sec = 40DPS (99% improvement as per description, but we’re rounding off the 0.2 here).
  • The boosted Symbiote also has (200carapace + 200mastery) = 400Carapace (99% again, again rounding off).
  • This effectively means (at a minimum without additional micro) that DPS doubled and bulk doubled. So that is 2 x 2 = 4x Stronger Ultimate Evolutions
    • This is very crude since micro and higher DPS has other implications to damage taken and damage dealt, therefore influencing actual survivability. However, for simplicity sake, let’s assume 4x here.

Double Biomass Chance

  • Normally, it is simply 2.5 Biomass x 1 (100% rate) x 2 (Virulent Nest) = 2x Biomass = 5 Biomass
  • With full 45% chance, the calculation is as follows:
    • (2.5 x 0.55 x 2) + (5 x 45% x 2) = 7.25 Biomass
    • Effectively you’re gaining about 45% more biomass.
  • Gaining biomass is really just the rate to which you reach Ultimate Evolution (or any other benefits of biomass, such as 3% HP, 1% attack speed/cooldown, 5% energy regen, etc. per stack)
  • So in order to reach 4x effective UE of its competitive partner here, even at 5biomass (double rate) at 100% of the time, you can only achieve 2x faster rate of reaching UE form at still 1/2 effectively strong UE.

The above really should be intuitive anyway, which means that in order to truly for Double Biomass Chance to be competitive… well for one, it needs to be renamed Quadruple Biomass Chance 100% with 30points.

  • 10biomass (vs 2.5 base rate) x 100% x 2(Virulent Nest) = 20Biomass
  • Alternatively if we kept the mastery rate to 45%, then:
    • (2.5 x 0.55 x 2) + (12.5 x 0.45 x 2) = 14Biomass
    • It would take a 5x mastery factor to reach remotely close to 20 Biomass to be on par (again, with assumptions). That same equation applied at 6x gives you 16.25, at 7x gives you 18.5, at 8x gives you 20.75 just barely...

But what would that really look like if you went 8x the rate and you did get lucky? After all, it is an either or situation and the calculation is only an average. So let’s take a look at the best case scenario:

  • Here I’m linking a game fairly typical of quick UE opening:
    Starcraft LotV Co-op - Void Launch Full Clear Solo in 12:10 (Abathur, Brutal) - YouTube
  • You’ll note that at 2:09 the Roach picks up 96 Biomass, so basically 1 UE at 2:10.
  • If this was 8x and you got lucky on all of those, then that’s 768 Biomass, essentially plenty o’mass to get all 6xUE. Even at 4x, it is a lot essentially.
  • The issue though of actually reaching 6xUE quickly is still gated behind economy and build times.

My final thoughts are that to make this remotely competitive that basic double rate would need to be at least 4x. While the average biomass may not be similar to equivalent Symbiote Mastery UE's effectiveness, there is definitely a case to be made about the relative push power of 2-3x UE at a similar time frame.

Although, one thing to keep in mind is with weaker UE, they are more prone to death. Since this is no Essence Hoarder, that loss of biomass is massive. On the other hand, the proposed 4x rate may in fact help ease players into faster UE approach. Of course, this assumes the player understands and can perform using UE appropriately.

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It’s +50% now, not double.

Not even close.
Symbiotes are not Ultimate Evolutions, it is different things. UE’s own HP and DPS is not affected by mastery and stays the same.
Brutalisk AG 20 DPS (AOE); +3 26 DPS (AOE)
Brutalisk AA 25 DPS; +3 32,5 DPS
Leviathan AG 33,3 DPS; +3 43,3 DPS
Leviathan AA 24 DPS (40 vs massive); +3 32 DPS (56 vs massive)
Assuming Brutalisk AG attack hits 3 targets at a time and 1/3 of Leviathans AA attacks hitting massive units on average (numbers are approximation) real UE DPS bonus from mastery is
Brutalisk AG 25%; +3 20%
Brutalisk AA 44,4%; +3 38,1%
Leviathan AG 37,5%; +3 31,6%
Leviathan AA 40,5% ; +3 33,3%
On average with +0 uprades Symbiote mastery gives + 38,5% DPS, on +3 upgrades +30,8% DPS

Carapace is a bit tricky to measure, because it’s not the only source of UEs sustaining damage, but lets try taking plain HP it adds to the basic (fights are rarely take more than 20 seconds, so assume it works 1 time)
HP increase from Symbiote mastery
Brutalisk 200/(1500+200)=11,8% , Leviathan 200/(1000+200)=16,7%
On average +14,3%

So you’re trying to convince people that these mediocre buffs to 6 units total are worth sacrificing +45% biomass for your whole other army on top of getting UEs much faster?

This mastery was bad when it was 15%, because by the time you feel the impact the game is basically already won (or lost), so you can just as well take the buff for UEs to make start easier. Now with 45% its power is overwhelming.

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1 UE with 2x dps and 2x toughness = 2 UEs not 4 UEs

also UEs have dps and toughness that is not from the symbiote

as pointed out above, 1 Symbiote Mastery UE ~ 1.2 Biomass mastery UE… so for P1 AND P3…Biomass >> Symbiote

P0/P2 it gets slightly different given the cap on UEs

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Not convincing anyone of anything, that is your assumption there. You’re right about the 50% virulent probably, I’ve noticed the sites lately have a lot more older data. 45% more biomass on average is great for the rest of the army if the rest of the army is relevant in a mission. My post is only relevant if you’re able to play 6UE fairly decently… and not the usual let’s wait 15min to make an army, UE comes somewhere along the way. <== That’s because everyone can make an Abathur army and face roll… so what’s there to discuss?

I’m also not sure claiming it “Power is Overwhelming” is equally right on your part… especially when I didn’t say to anyone to use Symbiote Mastery at all… Or that you’ve provided any data here on why exactly it is?

I am more accounting for both bulk and damage, as outlined in the OP. There wasn’t any disguise on that part. I don’t disagree with you or anyone who wishes to not see it that way. In fact, I think Che’s analysis in the DPS and Bulk as a whole is quite good.

I am perfectly aware that Symbiote isn’t the full damage lol nor is carapace the full bulk. Their utility however is far greater, despite not being the proportionally greater in any theoretical calculation. I’m sure both of you would agree, considering Che conveniently discounted the 8duration per 20cooldown. This rotation is crucial in longevity.

Similarly, as already pointed out in OP. P1 and P3 are exceptions to this discussion for obvious reasons. P1 has no UE to speak of and P3 has limitless of them, so clearly getting more of them is better when they scale infinitely.

Perhaps the post wasn’t clear enough, but the feel I’m getting is you two feel Double Biomass chance is entirely competitive in P0 and P2. I’d like to see some discussion on that rather than “picked it apart, heh heh”.

So I guess I’ll throw a question back, how does the 45% more biomass change the dynamic/flow of a mission “assuming here that it is competitive”? Does it actually speed up a speedrun for example? Or does it somehow benefit the army at specific points of the game that Symbiote Mastery loses out otherwise?

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For P0,2
Symbiote Mastery = 20 dps on 6 UE…120 Dps

Biomass Mastery = 45% more full biomass dps

So …assume roaches, 8 dps ->16 dps with full biomass.
so 100 biomass = 8 dps (at least)
so 1500 extra biomass gives the same dps as symbiote mastery

So the biomass mastery is better in raw dps if your base biomass is ~3000

Basically
Biomass = early+late
Symbiote = middle
because biomass gets you the first UE sooner, and a better army at the end

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But you get that biomass anyway. 45% averaged more biomass just equate to the rate of gain… not the effect of it.

The way you’re presenting this is like saying “if you choose Symbiote Mastery” you don’t get any of the Biomass benefits lol. That’s simply not true.

If we assume your quote correctly here, both gets 8dmg at 100biomass. You get to 16dmg quicker by 45%. I’m asking how does that change things?

To be clear, both mid and end game is equally strong. This isn’t a P1 got 25% more stacks than P0 situation… and frankly, having a much stronger early game arguably prompts a quicker ramp up than the alternative with quicker gain rate.

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The key point is
by the time in the game symbiote mastery has ~3000 biomass (~UE+24 full) biomass mastery is ahead in dps. (UE + 39 full)

So Biomass is better very early (gets UE earlier) and later (when army >>UE)

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And that’s because of what? Your hypothetical player’s control is AlphaStar quality? They definitely won’t lose their “less powerful UE” while pushing at the exact same speed?

No offence, but that’s a really bit assumption. I’ve watched many of our community speedster’s games, and even they lose their UEs at times with mastery. And most of the games matter at 600biomass.

Your “key point” here is assuming most players to play at a level better than people like LilA. And then… only then… after mid to late game, 3000 biomass later, they come out further ahead. You can’t be serious…

Just to be clear here so it doesn’t get off topic ish. Double Chance is perfectly okay to be used in P1 and P3, definitely even better in those cases even (especially P1 considering xD).

What we’re discussing is how exactly is 45% faster biomass gets you further ahead competitively than Symbiote.

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A terrible player with the biomass mastery will get their first UE sooner than if that same player had symbiote mastery.

A terrible player with symbiote mastery will get more value from their UEs (once they have them) than the same player with biomass mastery.

A terrible player with biomass mastery will do more dps than the same player with symbiote mastery late game.

Now
WHEN you get your first UE is going to be different from one player to another.
WHEN you get ~3000 “base”* biomass is going to vary from one player to another

But those are the basic points where it switches from one mastery to the other as having the best benefit.

*the amount you would get without biomass mastery.

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Wrong. A terrible player gets their UE later period. They don’t get it sooner due to faster biomass rate lol.

Absolutely correct because this doesn’t depend on when and how to get it.

Also wrong here. A terrible player can’t do more DPS when there’s no DPS to be done. You know exactly why lol.

So in the end, you’re making a case for the most excellent of elite players that they can do better with Biomass Mastery. For everyone else 99.9% of the other players, you haven’t shown anything about why it’s better.

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Seriously…read the whole sentence.

biomass mastery = faster UE*, better late game army than SAME PLAYER with symbiote mastery

symbiote mastery = better UEs than those of SAME PLAYER with biomass mastery

I mean if the player just uses drones to attack than neither mastery matters. I am talking about a player that actually build +uses combat units (and therefore collect biomass and get UEs)

If you get your first UE in ~minute 15 with symbiote mastery…that means you would get it in ~minute 10 with biomass mastery. (and before you get your first UE, symbiote mastery is literally zero effect)

  • in case you didn’t know, biomass is what gives you UE…that’s all you need is a unit with 100 biomass.
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Come on ppl… i like to play with a 10 / 20 split. :stuck_out_tongue:

UEs need to stay alive - thats it. 15% more or less DPS doesn’t matter much imo.

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Not trying to convince anyone, but in my humble opinion (which I do not enforce to anybody) having army is pretty important in SC2.

Oh, sorry. My post is only relevant if you able to play efficiently, build 50 units and faceroll the map instead of microing your heart out with just 6 of them.

I thought it is mentioned in this thread name
ULTIMATE EVOLUTION VS DOUBLE BIOMASS

Lets take mass queens as example
1 - Symbiote mastery, 2 - Biomass mastery
~207 (300) Biomass
2 UEs (+20 DPS each) vs 3 UEs - Biomass win
~ 414 (600) Biomass
4 UEs (+20 DPS each) vs 6 UEs - Biomass win
~1000 (1450) Biomass +1 upgrades
6 UEs (+20 DPS each) + 4x100 Queens (+11 DPS each) + 4x0 Queens vs 6 UEs + 8x100 (+11 DPS each) Queens - 164 vs 88 - Symbiote win
~ 2500 (3625) Biomass +2 upgrades
6 UEs (+20 DPS each) + 19x100 Queens (+13 DPS each) + 11x0 Queens vs 6 UEs + 30x100 (+13 DPS each) Queens - 367 vs 390 - Biomass win
~ 4000 (5800) Biomass + 3 upgrades
6 UEs (+20 DPS each) + 34x100 Queens (+15 DPS each) + 18x0 Queens vs 6 UEs + 52x100 (+15 DPS each) Queens - 600 vs 780 - Biomass win

The only point where Symbiot mastery is winning is when there is almost no units in the field except UEs. Early and late game Biomass mastery clearly dominating.

All damage taken to HP are healed by queens between battles. So it doen’t matter.

So you’re saying that you finish every game with Abathur on every map with 200/200 supply of 100/100 biomass army without biomas mastery? Very intresting…

If you losing UEs on a regualr basis, maybe you just don’t push into heavily fortified positions too early and wait a bit for more units? I know it may sound crazy, but not every game is a speed run. Nearly half of the maps are time locked anyways.
Also, queens exist.

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Ok i cant read that wall of text

BUT here is a completely new side to Symbiote Mastery: every further point you spend on it is worth less than the previous one. The last one is about half as good as the first one (in terms of %-increase to Symbiote abilities).

Think about it… the DPS increase from 20 -> 21 is in essence about 5%. When you go from 39 -> 40 though, it is only about 2.5%.

Sooooo maybe my solution to split points on both masteries is the best choice, cause it’s not worth maxing symbiote mastery… food for thought :smiley:

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I agree entirely. I’ve tried investing in the biomass mastery, I don’t find it specifically faster at all. All the push is done with by the 6UE that counts. The rest of it whether you have an “immensely powerful army” or “less immensely powerful army” it still facerolls.

@Che look man, don’t take this the wrong way. I’m not here to tell you how to play (never have). You seem to have an issue with players who use 6UE as the main strategy. Your entire 2nd response is all about how an army is so great.

Nobody here has remotely said (let alone denies) Abby’s army is strong af lol. So of course, getting biomass faster would mean a stronger army faster. What I’m saying is don’t confuse the two here. If you have 0 interest to player rush 6UEs, that’s fine, nobody told you to rush them. That doesn’t mean biomass mastery is competitive because your strategy is just slower.

All of these topics are about min/max. It has no significant impact on winning or losing. So in that context, please keep it in that context. Telling me (and the readers) that your amazing army is stronger faster is wonderful… but if your army clears the maps 5min later than 6UEs, then that’s not within the context anymore.

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OK, OK. Just next time when you’ll be posting nonsense please make sure to mention with big letters in the beginning that it only applies to speedrunning and not the actual gameplay, so it won’t confuse people like me.
And btw if you have some more free time please post your replay where you clear a map with 6 UEs 5 minutes before it can’t be done without Symbiote mastery. I would be very grateful.

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Sure man… prefaced with this that apparently neither you or Krik cared to read.

AKA, it doesn’t apply to P1 or P3.

Then I specifically explained, after I saw your confusion…

Just as always on this forum, simply because you don’t agree with something doesn’t mean you’re automatically given a magical right to attack people and make random accusations… It also doesn’t mean disagreeing equals “must be against everything you say!”

I never claimed 6UEs cleared a mission in 5min. I did imply that the portion of map that’s cleared by 6UE is substantial. So with that context, your stronger/faster army is still slower by comparison.

  • You probably run faster than me, but you don’t run faster than say Usain Bolt. So telling me how you run faster than me when we’re discussing the fastest man is not only off topic, you’re quite literally bringing non-sense.

On the other hand since you’re all about replays:

Why not show me your replay of your sensational claims that Double Biomass is competitive by using a “faster and stronger army”? Just saying, if you’re going to measure things in your standard, then you better provide that standard first.

See, I can’t claim nor have I claimed that I play better than LilA. Unlike what Krik’s claims are expecting player to be. Nor have I claimed that I can clear things with 6UEs super duper well. But…

I’ve already linked just a random game of LilA’s on Void Launch in OP. I know a good coop player when I see one. I know a strong strategy when I see one. Why don’t you make an army, don’t use 6UEs, and show me (show us all) how it’s faster than 6UEs? Ya know… with a replay.

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For ALL PLAYERS, Brutation speed runners or those who struggle to win Casual

Biomass mastery -> earlier UE than symbiote mastery

Biomass mastery-> better late game army than symbiote mastery

Symbiote mastery-> better UE (once you have them) than biomass mastery

This applies to all players that use Abathur’s combat units (UE are a combat unit) in the game.

If you play by only getting 6 UE, then Biomass gets you 6 UE faster and symbiote is better after you have them. If you use any additional units then biomass mastery makes them increasingly better.

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I feel like I’m reading this like there’s some scarcity on biomass somehow.

The limiting factor of getting your 1st through 6th UE is usually in the low economic situation. The build opens up with 12 and down to ==> 10drones. So if you understand this build order, then you’ll know you can’t have 2 more roaches in addition cuz (1) your supply is blocked and (2) you don’t have 200min with them 10 drones worker their drone tail off.

By the time 2nd and 3rd roaches come slowly strolling by from your main, there are plenty of biomass to go around. Your first Brutalisk is quite key in its uptime via spore/Roach. It affects the subsequent pull of enemies into nests.

These discussions seem to gone wayward with assuming 45% more biomass magically pops out of enemies not killed. Even with a Symbiote Mastery Brutalisk, aggro can be dangerous when ill-controlled.

Your premise hinges on a non-mastery Brutalisk that would have came up at the same time (due to build order limitations, not biomass availability btw). And using said Brutalisk to aggro better and therefore net more biomass.

The question remains, how are you doing that? or How are you expecting a player to do that?

Because the obvious point here is… if you can’t aggro better to let nests kill off enemies, then you haven’t generated more biomass… you’ve actually generated less. And that’s a problem.

On the other hand, if you have aggro’d better somehow and the available biomass would net you the same timings of your 2nd and 3rd Brutalisks, then where is the competitive part of that extra 45%?

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If you are putting everything into just early UE, you can get 3 roaches by ~1:35. Well before you would have 300 biomass (with either method)

(that does delay leviathans and attack upgrades)