why? if they cost money they should at least get the carrier treatment.
Why should ANYBODY pay for a unit, which dies 10 sec later? This statement alone is so hugely biased that it hurts. Show me ANY unit, which functions this way. If you pay for a unit, it shall stay until it gets killed.
Why should ANYONE build such a sh version? Its so dumb. The only way, you could make a cost for locust work, is to give them unlimited life span, until they get killed, like interceptors.
Its funny, some of the whiner would be fine with that, but in reality, it would be the biggest buff in zerg history.
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Free. Without cost. 20 char
itâs not just SH he plans on giving that treatment too though. its Brood Lords too.
its funny watching these terrans cry about zerg when⌠for the past month and a half TvZ has been heavily terran favored.
does protoss need love? yeah. iâll give them that.
You donât mention anything specifically. The queen itself was a patch-up job to a problem that they never cared to address, the same exact issue that the MSC faced before it was removed - its unnecessary.
Itâs a great early base defense, and really makes harassment of any kind difficult.
At the same time, itâs a liability, as itâs one of the greatest targets (and losing it harms the Zerg greatly). The queen in itself is a big beefy unit that costs 2 supply, but it doesnât flow with the original Zerg design of being âswarmyâ, And all of its functions are better suited to the hatchery
So then, do you believe the SH and BroodLord being energy-based is doable?
The argument here is, should âfree unitsâ be allowed. I would say they the BroodLordâs attack functions more as an attack and would be fine as is - but the SHâs attack, also being T2 would need some sort of âpriceâ, or energy consumption.
My balance ideas are much more sound:
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What exactly would change, if sh were energy based instead of cd based?
Sh itself arent problematic, since both, terran and toss, have counterplay to it. Sh nydus was too strong, but it got nerfed in the latest patch.
Any suggestion from this forum to even nerf them further is short minded, not thought out or just dumb without any exception.
âHereâs my idea for a totally different game that is likely wildly imbalanced lolâ
no. the argument is that if you are going to make zerg pay for broodlings and swarm hosts attacks, the units should at least last till killed. you know. just like a similar unit that has to pay for its attacking unit. the carrier.
Yeah that would be a much better idea. Give them like 2 free charges like carrier get some interceptor when they spawn and for the next they should pay.
Thereâs two arguments that seem perpetual in this forum.
One is the argument against âfree unitsâ, claiming that they have no place In RTS.
The second is, Zerg spawned (timed) units are finite, and therefore should not cost as other generated units like the carrier.
I personally agree with this, but the community seems split down the middle - so whatâs the proper compromise?
My thoughts would be to balance at the point of delivery rather than the unit itself, because it makes sense and isnât fair at all for Zerg spawned units to have half-life but also cost.
For this reason, I think Nydus worm health reduction when not on creep is a good balancer for Swarm Host.
Brood lord is essentially already nerfed to the point of being useful but not broken. Iâll change - thank you for input.
I made edits,
But basically changing Tempest to an air to air assist / counter unit.
Counter as In, with enough tempests (example) you could counter mass carriers since the splash of attack hits carrier and interceptor and slowly stacks additional damage with each secondary attack.
By this, 3 consecutive attacks onto one carrier would destroy most Carrier shields, and would wipe out all interceptors. The balancing factor here being the carriers range and faster mobility.
Assist because, with 1 - 2 Tempest, their attacks would still splash carrier and interceptor, making the interceptors 1/2 shot to kill for example, a group of stalkers since the âdegradeâ damage multiplies dps and all air damage taken afterwards.
The same concept could be applied to a group of mutas, where Tempests would annihilate a group of mutas if clumped up, but micro on the mutas would mitigate this immensely
This would allow a much better counter to BCS, since the aspect wouldnât fall to Tempest as a long range boring siege unit, instead a tactical unit that can allow void rays to crush slower moving air targets.
Terran tactic here could be BCS Yamato before these can be engaged, followed by Vikings.
Last aspect here is the Tempest maintaining siege to ground aspect based on a similar corrosion ability that affects in a radius over time as a âsiege-line breakerâ. This would mean that the unit doesnât have to poke in and dart back awkwardly and game play would be much less boring and monotonous for it. This unit would function as the battering ram, without making it a Carrier 2.0.
As Serrals uncle, Iâd think you would have known better
My biggest concern about this is your treatment of free units. Let me elaborate (I am not against removing free units, but your way is problematic in the best case and gamebreaking in any other case).
-Units that cost resources should not be timed. You want locusts to cost resources, fine by me, but they shouldnât be timed in that case. Like interceptors, they cost resources but are not timed. This would mean seriously reworking the SH though, because in many cases if we went through with your proposal, a locust wave to remove an expansion would need to cost nearly as much as the expansion itself.
-Units should not pay to attack. Imagine having 10 broodlords attacking with your proposal (and their broodligs are timed by the way), in a few seconds of extended trades they would have cost you an arm and a leg. Not to mention the horrific design flaws and tradeoffs of not being able to spend money because you need to bank up some hundreds to be able to attack a few times, and imagine the problems of a tight economy game not being able to attack with end game units. Against tanky units, killing them might cost more to the attacker than the defender needs to replace the unit.
Both of these would need a complete rework of how SH and Broodlords work. Iâm not against it, but my point is that it is not as easy as slapping a cost on âfree unitsâ and calling it a day.
Edit: I see you removed the parts about adressing free units. Ignore my post then. Leaving it here because I feel it is a point that needs to be made, that things are not as easy as slapping a cost on things.
Agreed, and I made changes after thinking on this. I donât think it would be fair in the least, and infinite locusts and broodlings would be a nightmare⌠!!!
I think the way to âfixâ Swarm Hosts is to limit itâs usefulness with Nydus worm, which is why I proposed a change where Nydus, like all Zerg structures, decreases HP as a high rate when built off of creep. This would make Nydus better for lore and game principle, and would also be much more balanced if it had a timed death with option to keep alive for doom drop or just defensive nydus.
Exactly, and as a Terran player this aspect isnât even noticed since weâre usually just on the receiving end. Iâve heard more about âfree units shouldnât be allowed in an RTSâ more than any other argument lately⌠but after much thought, itâs almost right where it needs to be but itâs just the execution that might need to be looked into more.
This is going to hinder creep spread tremendously, in the early game zerg needs more larva than creep unless they already expanded into the natural. But you are allowed to have multiple queens meaning multiple energy banks to spawn creep tumors from. Doing the change you suggested would make it so zerg could only spread creep efficiently after the 10 minute mark(or maybe even later than that) and even then thatâs only if they donât need transfuses or injects. If your opponent is applying constant pressure (which both protoss and terrans have many harrass options) your mostly going to be using the energy for injects and transfuses. This means that if you have a comp that is based on using creep, i.e ling/bane/hydra/ultra/lurker, then your going to be playing defensively the majority of the time until you can get your creep out. And on top of that the creep will be much easier to clear lol The only way around this would be making macro hatches, but with zerg thatâs not really feasible, they arenât terrans with their orbitals lol you cant lift them when you need to and it cant call mules to fill the eco gap it would cause just by building them. Zerg relys heavily on map control because their units are not that good and this is seriously damaging that, this is overall a huge nerf.
Again, lets look at why the roach was put as a tier one in the first place? Because zerg needed an early game unit that was not squishy as hell. Medivac/marine/helion would wipe hydra ling easily. Roaches and lings already struggle to break terran siege walls, do you think it will be any easier for zerg if you take their ONLY offensive tanky unit out of the early game and lock it behind lair tech? NO lol. Hydras melt to stim marines, and siege tanks, and we arenât even adding the fact that hydras have expensive a$$ upgrades. One for range And one for speed off creep, roach without speed upgrade is only good because it has armor and last longer and even then only requires one upgrade to be viable, lings are also good because they are viable after only one upgrade. Hydras having to wait for 2 upgrades to be viable but still be a t1 unit is ridiculous. There is no real pressure you could apply with hydra as a tier 1 unit, people would just turtle up and wait for lair tech anyways. Also this means no early game ravagers.
Tis is actually interesting, making the nydus more of a defense than an offense is not bad, but I just donât see anyone using it all if it only last 10 seconds off creep, swarm host play would be non existent.
Just no, âfreeâ units are impossible to balance around. Scourge should be added to the zerg arsenal as a stand alone unit, kinda dumb they donât have them already
What is this gonna do against and air based all in? Or if a terran decides to throw a BC at your base before the 5minute mark? BC will mop a handful of hydras easily lol.
How if this going to help an ultralisk?? Their main problem is that they die in almost every engagement due to pathing issues and being a big bulky melee unit with no way to close distance to the opponent. If you engage with ultras you are forced to commit to that engagement because 9/10 its going to be versus a ranged comp. Allowing them to heal ONLY while burrowed is frankly pointless. Roches have had that ability for years and you hardly even see it researched lol, that is not gonna help ultras win fights at all.
âŚâŚSo terrans are the only ones able to proxy now? lol
I agree they need a range or damage buff, that units sucks for being a tier 3 lol
âŚâŚSo you want to make their early game defense even stronger? They can already repair the damn thing lol make them actually work a little.
Lets remove mules, damn free units, then we can remove inject, because⌠free units from a queen gives you free production. Time to start making more hatcheries.
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The zergâs production has to be paid for, in full, with minerals.