Been refining an allin recently for TvZ that seems pretty good.
It’s 2 rax reaper with 2 reactor factories pumping Hellions.
The opener is pretty much normal for 2 rax reaper. 4-5 scvs on 2 gas. After the 2nd rax, after the 1st round of reapers, get a factory. When it finishes, reactor immediately and get another factory.
The 2 rax constantly make reaper and nothing but reaper. You go in, get drone kills, try to mess with the zerg a bit. Don’t let them die, You want them alive for when you get around 6 hellions. Then you ball up and attack the front. Rally your reinforcements to a unit in your deathball and kite+drop nades as appropriate.
If Roaches show up. No worries. Nades wreck them if you click spam or rapid fire cast. Banes can be kited for days and if they rush spire, just get some mines and dive the drones since they’re obviously going mutas. Lings don’t even matter. You can kite and wreck them for years. Queens also die to the nades, etc so they’re not a big deal. And don’t be afraid to throw away a good chunk of your army diving drones Once you bleed the army a bit you can theoretically kill them all! The reactor factories and 2 rax reinforce fairly quick!
Haven’t tried this past dia 1 but it seems to do very well there. It may do well in masters and gm. You’ll have to test it out.
What is “Nades”? How roaches can die vs reaper/hellions, when they have bonus damage to light units? Zerg can scout 2-nd rax with overlord and make 1 crawler per base or even 2. How reapers or hellions can kill crawler? Queens die vs reapers and hellions? WHat? Reaper+hellions can work vs lings and banes, but vs roaches/crawlers its totally fail.
Reapers have grenades, I shorten it to"nades".
Roaches die because the grenades, when cast fast enough stack their damage as the units fly up into the air.
Queens are a complete non-issue.
Spine Crawlers that early mean less army and grenades wreck spine crawlers very, very fast.
It has a timing window, if too many roaches, like a good 14+ show up, then you’re in trouble. But as long as you attack fast, which this does, then there’s no problem.
Wait, grenades have 5 damage, how many grenades do you need for kill 145 hp roach? 29? really? Spine crawler have 300 hp, with grenades you will killing them forever.
Yea, but vs reapers no point to make lings, crawlers will be better anyway.
I think all terrans tried mass reapers, it is funny in theory but in reality you attack with reapers, zerg have roaches and will keep make them, kill your reapers and go for counter attack, evolve them into ravages, spam corrosive bite at your wall, and you dead.
Yep 5 damage, so when you have a good 10 reapers snowball, that’s going to deal a good 50ish damage in an AoE and “stun” the hit units. The grenades aren’t the end all be all of the build. They just make things a lot easier than normal.
Roaches don’t counter Reaper Hellion. The damage output is too high and Roach damage output is too low. By time they kill off a few units, either all the drones are dead or more than what the Roaches killed has reinforced.
Had 3 or 4 games tonight on both NA and EU where Roaches were both made and rushed. They did absolutely nothing to stop the allin.
When you will have 10 reapers, zerg will have 10 roaches, probably even more, i dont know how damage output can be too high when roach have 1 natural armor vs 4x2 damage reaper, and 16 damage vs 0 armor reaper. And support with spine crawler.
With mass reapers you can win all three matchaps if opponent didnt scout/havent defense but for good macro matches with reapers you will far behind with your economy.
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10 roaches aren’t an issue. They get stunned, -50 health immediately and thrown into Hellions for the splash to line up. Just focus fire after lobbing the grenades.
6 damage x10+ the Hellions is enough to gib Roaches faster than Roaches can deal with that composition.
Roaches don’t beat Reaper Hellion in this timing. Not unless you screw up…and even then, you have to screw up pretty badly.
Something isn’t making sense here for me. Reaper charge has a damage of 5 and a cooldown of 14 seconds. How exactly are you “wrecking” roaches and spines with 50 damage every 14 seconds? It would take 1 and a half minutes to kill a single spine. That’s forever in an opening, and 3 times longer than it takes for the zerg to build another one.
Even assuming you managed to all-in 10 reapers before getting eaten alive by basic bane and roach harassment. (Note: “Kiting” the banes and roaches doesn’t do anything when they are in your base killing you)
I’m truly curious, can you post a replay of one of your apparently many successes wrecking spines and roaches with early mass reaper charges?
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I’ll post a replay or 2 in a good 7 or so hours. It’s 1am. I need sleep.
It’s not just the grenades doing damage. It’s the attacks as well and focus firing. I think the reason why it works so well is a 2 parter.
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Roaches have low range, are slow and attack fairly slowly.
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Due to the 2 reactor factories and 2 rax, you significantly out number the enemy and you reinforce pretty fast.
So yeah, Roaches do kill Reapers and Hellions but for every 1 or 3 they kill, 4 hellions and 2 reapers reinforce. Roaches just aren’t as efficient at killing as Reaper Hellion.
They won’t be in your base. The only thing that hits faster is pool 1st aggression and when you see that, you stay at home until you have 6 reapers, 6 hellions and then push. Banelings can’t get close without bane speed, you can kite them for days and banelings mean making lings…and lings are literally auto lose vs this. At least Roaches have a chance if you manage to clump enough of them up.
I forgot spines start with 2 armor, not 0. So the reaper charges would be doing 3 each, not 5. it would take a full 2 and a half minutes for 10 reapers to kill a single spine with “nades”, even assuming perfect micro. Probably 3+ mins assuming you didn’t time them down to the second. So…I guess what I’m saying is I’m looking forward to a replay showing this happen against diamond.
Reaper grenades deal spell damage, so they ignore armour.
In saying that, a simple wall off with queens makes this fairly easy to hold. Between transfuse and the wall off, along with creep connecting the 1st and 2nd base, you should be fine. Since it’s an all in, you can lose a fair few drones and be okay, so long as you hold and don’t lose EVERYTHING, you should be in a basically in a game winning spot as a Zerg.
In saying that, so many Zerg players just don’t wall off if they scout something like this coming.
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Ah, okay so first estimate was correct, 1 and a half minutes then. That doesn’t exactly seem like a “very very fast” in the opening. And I am wondering what a diamond zerg is doing all that time, in the meantime.
If I had to guess, you’d essentially have to catch the spine as it started going up. As long as you can prevent one or two spines from going up, you could deal reasonable damage - in theory anyway. As I said, with a half decent wall off and a few queens, it shouldn’t be to difficult to hold. You’d need to keep an eye on the reaper ledges on each map though so they don’t back-door you. easily solved with some creep spread though, but that might take a little time.
Queens and a few roaches at home and a few banes in the terrrans mineral line make this easy to hold, imo. Even without a wall off. Especially since terran doesn’t have an expansion. Simply saying “he won’t be in your base” makes no sense. And by the time terran has 10 reapers zerg will be on two bases at least.
This doesn’t really matter if the Terran deals enough damage to transition out, but that’s quite significant amounts of damage. As for Bane Busts, Terran also have the ability to wall off, and overlord drops are lair tech. If you can sneak enough lings out to morph banes and bust the inevitable wall off, you’d be able to essentially make them drop dead, but that’s not particularly reliable given the presence that they would likely have.
Sorry. Still not buying reapers charges kill spines “very very fast” lol. Looking forward to seeing it. Mass reaper in the opening is more rare than flying pigs. There’s a very good reason for that.
I would believe this beats a bronze player once, or the elite AI. But diamond? And “wrecking” spines and queens very very fast. Not seeing it. No matter what weird hypothetical you dream up.
They don’t. Not really, but if you get enough, you can out DPS the growth rate of a spine-crawler. Once the spine is up, they definitely won’t go down quickly.
You cant ever hit 10 roaches with reaper grenades. Those things throw them around, making it impossible to land second shot even if you line up first perfectly. Theres reason ppl dont use reapers. They are super bad unless you catch enemy so early, you can rely on reaper regen to stay healthy while killing his units as they spawn.
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That’s the problem I’m having trying to picture this. What is being described sounds a lot like naive theory crafting from someone not really experienced with the units they are talking about. (No offence intended to anyone here, but that’s just true). The entire description of “nades” as a main offensive (offensive, really?) tactic, and landing 10 hits at will and wrecking roaches, queens, and spines sounds very weird. Just like completely off.
For starters you simply cannot even afford this much production to begin with. So by default the all in is already inefficient/bad.
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