The suggestions here are wildly laughable and the OP’s premise is flawed. No, Terran vs Protoss is not designed to allow Terran to expand faster (That’s Zerg). Furthermore, Protoss economy is a facet of the Protoss race–a race that requires massive tech and unit compositions to work together unlike Terran who doesn’t require as much research or diverse unit compositions. The mule mechanic already accounts for 5-6 workers at each interval. Obviously the chrono means faster tech and economy–that’s the point of the race. And for the record, Protoss economy is vastly inferior to Zerg economy hence the need to do massive damage to catch up, which lately has been to just hit timing attacks and end the game early instead. Also, for those saying Protoss should have energy on their nexus starting at 0, a chronoboost at 50 barely lets you get a unit out to stop a 12 pool from zerg (+/- 4 seconds depending on the map). The bias is real; watch and learn the other matchups before asking for blatantly broken changes. Different races are different (Asymmetrical balance).
Finally someone who got it right, people complaing on storm, or forcefields wtf. But they are right about warprisms and chargelots. Which are strong on iteself, but without economy, it could be fine, maybe chargelots, warprism is still a bit ridiculous. Because you have disruptor and speedprism you can’t catch even, it has no counter, only thing you can hope you juke his ball, or pick up units, or use raven, but you can’t even kill it, which is broken. Or picking up dts out of range when you scan and noone buil 3 turrets, you can lose depots and addons, if you don’t open raven you f2cked. And than blink dts are ridiculous, you have to mega blindcounter it to hold it, thanks to broken economy. So yeah economy is a main problem in tvp
**- if you mule wrong patch you f2ck up your mineral line
- if your mule expires you lose even more than before
- protoss chronoboost is 4 second shorter, but lasts longer, good for upgrades and less hard for multitasking, there used be human error even in gm, when protoss would forget to chrono
- yet protoss is even easier to play, gates warp automatically, much easier for multitasking now - while terran macro mechanics got harder, terran was already hard to play…**
Not to mention zvp needs fixing too and one of the most glaring issues is with economy. The entire reason that these immortal sentry timings are working vs zerg is because zerg is forced into two bad choices. Either make more drones than the protoss and die to their army, or try to defend by making army and fall behind in drones. One of darks recent games for example? It was like 37 workers vs 40 workers and it was still a tough hold.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: removing 100/100 from every protoss build order and giving them pure mineral reactive defense was a mistake. All their timings are sharper and then we buffed warp gate on top of that lol.
Another problem is the warp prism, as pointed out by all the guests on the last Pylon Show, and all the guests play Protoss.
The core issue in the P match up in general for both Z and T has been economy some of us have been saying this for years, WP are a problem but the econ behind it makes the problem bigger than it is. You have a race who through out SC2 in WOL and HOTS expanded later than the other races due to having a strong late game and solid units that’s how the match up played out.
Now in LOTV DK in his oversight to make the game faster to compete with mobas gave us the 12w start, that is full mineral saturation when you begin the game which is all well and good but if a boosted econ allows you to now expand and get tech as fast as other races only your tech was strong late game and you have it out mid game the are going to be fundamental issues that no unit adjustment can fix as now builds that were never meant to be viable in the core SC2 concept and design are now in play.
This is why things like WP is a problem in LOTV because 3 bases and 12 gates are behind it as opposed to the prior expansions where Toss was very strong late game but it was harder to get the tech out and 3 bases were a battle to obtain but if you manage to get a third running the tides began to turn, remember back then even just taking an early gas delayed expanding heavily and your opponent seeing a gas indicated tech or an attack so scouting had more impact early game. If the starting worker count was reverted you’ll see a lot of problems just sort themselves out.
Yea I think they should just go back to HotS balance and add in the new units and abilities and try to balance the game from there honestly…I played HotS yesterday and it felt really good…very different though…
Everybody talks about MSC and all the negatives with it also even just with LOTV 3.8 or whatever…but seriously at the time I think the game was nearly balanced and it still is pretty close…
I do miss building up and actually like early macro decision making being a big deal… having good macro, mechanics and some micro and control being needed back in like the day9 days.
Ironically, reducing starting worker count actually gives Protoss a larger eco advantage early on, as the missed mining time for building construction is more significant.
Economy isn’t the problem. Terran has initial infrastructure costs/economic delays built in that are then more than compensated for after about 2 minutes of game time (~1.4min or so in real time on faster game speed). It’s that window, where Protoss has any noteworthy eco advantage; the advantage goes away pretty quickly. But the real advantage is that stalkers can out-micro terran units in the early game due to greater range, shield regen, and faster movement, which forces Terran to be on the defensive and slows their expansion. The problem is, stalkers aren’t really worth what they cost once terran gets tanks/stim/medivacs, and their high cost usually compensates for any eco advantage protoss had during that phase of the game where they’re strong once Terran gets their tech. So the game swings the other direction pretty quickly if the Protoss didn’t get damage in with any stalkers that were made early.
After Terran gets their orbitals up on even bases, their Eco is actually stronger than the Protoss eco, even if they’re behind ~4 workers per base.
In TvZ, Terran isn’t behind early because marines, reapers, and hellions are a real threat to the Zerg early on, as they can fight lings effectively regardless of terrain even in fairly small numbers due to high ranged DPS, speed, and/or AoE.
It’s why things like proxy marine/bunker rushes are actually a threat for Zerg, while proxy rushes from protoss are pretty awful vs Zerg, as Zealots/adepts aren’t actually good vs lings without charge, an upgrade lead, very large numbers, or a choke point, and stalkers are pretty much always terrible vs lings.
On maps with gold bases halfway across the map, the meta tended to develop for Zerg to go straight for it, because Protoss can’t easily punish the Zerg for taking an aggressively placed expansion so early in the game. Terran can, despite having a weaker early eco than protoss. Unit design makes a larger difference in every match up for what players can do early on than eco.
It was an excellent analysis on Stalker pros and cons. What is your opinion on increasing the granularity of the potential of a unit in general (Stalker in particular)? The BW-way,where you generally begun with a basic unit and through long and expensive upgrades transformed it in a much better self? Reaver had 2 important upgrades (Scarab damage and Number of Scarabs) - Disruptor has none…
In this way you can control the power of each unit better, give more scaling potential latter and indirectly nerff Chrono (that would be directed to those extra upgrades).
Une can even think of going Double Twilight to rush multiple upgrades (that now is extremely rare if not suicidal)…
Yeah good analysis Asamu…do you think its bad to play more like Stats and get blink and only have like 4 stalkers on the map and a few back home on D (giving more respect to the opponent you could say - maybe theres already two tanks and stuff and probably a push, probably other games Stats may go aggressive?) and then turning that eco into either production or tech (colloss or storm) advantage…
I think bio is just too hard and doesnt have a big enough timing window for the most part anymore…banes…or Protoss splash, zerg rushes bane speed, P mostly rushes colossus. Terran kinda need more factory or advanced units to support bio, and in HotS like the progression to ghosts and stuff seems like it went better and stuff for Terran and bases last longer and stuff.
And like energy units in general, more important, more costly, but can easily pay for themselves over time…raven op especially! tis a cool game imo.
Here’s a real solution. Rather than buffing Terran, nerf Protoss into the ground. PvZ is already really lopsided in favor of Protoss, so that seems like the obvious solution to me. Nerfing Protoss also doesn’t affect TvZ balance at all.
What if I told you we wanted an actual reasonable solution instead?
Pfft, ridiculous. Why would anyone want to suggest such a thing
I have already been advocating a -1 range nerf to the warp prism to fix both TvP and ZvP so I will just mention that. A warp prism nerf is supposedly what the balance team is planning to do anyways, but we’ll see.
I dislike repeating rumor and hearsay just because its in line with what the community wants. Doubly so if youre thinking of what I am and it originates with a source on the other side of the planet from where the devs live and work.
And can you guarantee now in front of all the Forum on today 26 June 2019, that the WP nerff so dear to you will be enough and you will not crawl-back in this very forum a couple of weeks from the nerff, to whine and ask for further nerffs?
You know? We have heard this song before…
Maybe you’re right and it’s just rumor. Regardless, let’s just wait and see what the balance team actually decides to do as the best course of action for now.
I know the potential warp prism nerf triggers you and other Protoss posters in this forum, but to be honest if they can come up with a better solution to restore balance then I’d be fine with it too. Anyways, I’m just repeating rumor like Kelthar said so it’s not like I came up with this idea on my own and have a deep emotional attachment to it.
LOL, to restore the balance…
Sure, revert all protoss nerffs and then we will speak about balance…
The problem with you terrans in general is that you create a narrative and after repeating it enough times begin to believe in your own propaganda.
Sigh, most so called evil Terrans are not out to get your race. Maybe it’s because GSL viewers like myself that play Terran or Zerg are tired of seeing Protoss make up double or more of the race representation in a season.
It was boring and dull as an SC2 fan that enjoys watching high level play from the best players in the world. Incredibly disappointing season overall that had little entertainment value.
However, maybe GSL S3 will miraculously have balance fixed without any nerf to the warp prism and the balance team won’t nerf Protoss and if that’s the case then I’ll concede defeat, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
And if GSL S3 would have a terran so called overrepresentation will you be so vocal in asking terran nerffs?
Actually in EU there is a carnage where there are 12 zergs, 3 protoss and 4 terrans…
I did not notice a peep from you…
I understand: only tournaments that support your victim-narrative are valid.
If Terran were exactly the same as Protoss, I wouldn’t obviously ask for nerfing the race I play because that would be ridiculous, I don’t see you doing it now, so don’t hold me to that standard. That would be your job and other non-Terrans of course. I am not even paying attention to EU at all to be completely honest.