Nothing other than the fact that the vast majority of the playerbase hasnt figured out how to play in it yet. Typical forum behavior with radical changes, especially in todays environment.
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Thatâs not true at all. 8 worker start definitely slows down the game and the amount of actions. Most players are simply in âLOTVâ mode thatâs why you may have that impression that nothing has changed. By your logic 6 worker start also means exactly the same level ?
Now all we have to do is to slow down expanding a little bit and the game should be in a really good state - the rest needs to be figured out in time.
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Itâs completely true.
I mean, it slows down the game in that it simply drags out time before you can make your first couple of buildings and units, and really does nothing else other than flip the table on build orders.
Iâm sure thatâs true for some people. Doesnât make Eliwanâs statement any less true.
Yes? Because changing the worker count didnât change the rest of the requirements of the game, and didnât remove any of the other things people found difficult to deal with like widow mines, liberators, DTs, lurkers, swarm-hosts, various cheeses like cannon rushes, etc. It doesnât reduce the amount of micro compositions have or the difficulty of engagements. It doesnât change the need to macro or utilize your macro mechanics effectively. It doesnât do anything other than make the start of the game more tedious.
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Yes, it slows down
the start
of the game.
You said that with 12 workers, the insanity begins at 5 minutes.
My point is that, with 8 workers, sure, the insanity begins at 7 minutes. Or later!
But âthe insanityâ is unchanged in how much of your attention it demands, about how stressful it is, about how painfully fast it goes.
This means that the exact same problem happens, where there are too many things to do at once and people give up.
This is because once you have 40-60 workers, you still have to play just as fast as you did when you had 40-60 workers on the previous patch. Nothing about the game state at that point has changed â just how long it takes to get to that game state.
like, fundamentally
Yes. Of course it would.
WoL and HotS had different timings for a dozen things. A bunch of researches are faster. A bunch of unit investments are streamlined, and donât have their features locked behind an upgrade. Void Rays and Reapers are completely different units. Thereâs all sorts of things that make the pace of Liberty and Swarm not be the same as the pace of Void. But all of them are actually pretty close in how fast late games are, in how killdeathy unit interactions are, in how big fights end in 10 seconds. All those changes do make a significant difference in the dynamic of getting to that stage, but the army battles when you have 80 combat units arenât that different.
The attention-splitting drop play that Terran in particular leverages more than anyone else comes from the LotV addition of Ignite Afterburners. Because LotV specifically wanted to add more tools to each race to harass worker lines, and thatâs one that Terran got.
If you donât remove Afterburners, congratulations, that type of play is unchanged. It still will exist and will do damage and fray the sanity and test the attentiveness of its victim.
Even if the game started you with zero workers, the level of insanity that the game gets to will not change unless you change the actual units.
It will just take longer to get there, and a lot of that âtake longerâ will be time that is spent on doing nothing of interest.
Like, context, okay; Iâd argued that 12 workers is too many workers since I found out about it. I played it and I said âyeah this is too manyâ, then I played a bunch of campaign missions, went back and played some WoL ladder and realised âwait I am literally sitting here for 3 minutes doing nothing if my opponent doesnât cheeseâ.
12 workers is far fewer too many workers than 6 workers was too few workers. So changing it now to 8 workers doesnât really make sense, because the gameâs been out and tired.
Of course players are âin LotV modeâ â the units are in their LotV incarnations.
True, except cheeses, 8 worker start definitely makes cheese less efficient for two main reasons:
- defender now has more time to scout, prepare and react
- cheeser now has less workers meaning they have to sacrifice eco and essentially cheese becomes an all-in - if it fails it should be game over for cheeser because there is no transition or follow-up (at least that was the case in 6 worker start)
oh, and btw you complained about âthings not lining up properlyâ - âyou have to cut worker to execute certain buildsâ etc. I tried reaper FE and it aligns perfectly - if you build 1st depo the moment when 12th SCV starts producing you will have enough money to build rax, refinery and maintain constant SCV production.
About other builds i donât know but iâm fairly certain many of them will simply become obsolete - double gas factory expand in TvT or TvP. Remember itâs just the beginning - the game still needs to be figured out. You canât make final judgement after couple of games played. Better players than you and me will figure out openers for every race, plus you can expect couple of patches to adjust few things (larva spawn rate coming to mind).
HotS. That was added in HotS.
Agree with everything else you said though.
Not exactly. Thatâs dependent on the cheese in question; some cheeses are arguably stronger because to scout them would require a worker scout, which takes up a much, much larger portion of your economy compared to the 12 worker start.
Depot builds on 11 because if you build on 12 you end up supply blocked at 13. If you build on 11, your depot finishes with only a second or two of block, and you can start the rax immediately.
At this point, however, you donât have enough money to also start the refinery immediately, which means that you donât get the 50 gas as the rax finishes - unless you skip the worker to get the refinery down on time to get that 50 gas. If you donât skip the worker, then your reaper is about 12 second late - not enough time to produce a marine, but also a significant delay in your scouting time and your time to prepare for anything.
I would know - I have tested this extensively. I have played a fair number of games already on this patch. I should also point out, this is not just me saying this, itâs pig, itâs Byun, itâs Uthermal, itâs Percival, itâs pretty much every single high level Terran saying that this is what you have to do to get the reaper out on time.
Not necessarily obsolete but extremely committed at the bare minimum - Iâm more of the opinion you wonât see them much though - at least in TvP where Protoss already gets to have roughly 2.4 chrono boosts before we can drop a single mule.
As an aside, removing these builds, again, does the exact opposite of what this patch wanted to do, which was create build diversity.
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Miro, virtually everything you have said is completely false, and it suggests highly that you donât play a very high level.
The truth is, the game pacing is exactly the same, youâre just using antiquated builds that donât function for current econ environment.
Whatever you say buddy. Youâre welcome to think what you like.
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I wish I didnât have to stop playing, but itâs impossible to enjoy this game like this.
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