So at the highest level of competition it shows both Zerg and Terran not willing to engage in macro games against protoss. Every single time protoss has lost its been to some sort of cheese build.
The numbers in GM also show an overwhelming amount of protoss players and lower leagues all say that Protoss is overpowered. The all in tactics against protoss are present there as well as I have experienced first hand playing protoss all season.
But still there are the 6 protoss players who continuously deny this is the state of the game. They continuously deny protoss being strong in the late game. Will there ever be anything done about it?? Probably not, we just have to hope for TvZ matches in the pro-leagues to actually be able to watch some RTS.
You never think why chesese happen? Think it ok all race instead same protoss force do a few t3 splash units just for be in game ok then gate army was trash compare too simple rax army from terran?.
Toss has always had one of the beefiest lategames since WoL with golden armada as one of the best deathballs plus ability to remax on a tech switch. I think this was fine when T1 stargate was at most a supporting tech path with phoenix or oracles.
Now that T1 stargate is viable as a core tech path with new voids, it makes transition into the golden armada cheap and quick. The lull between investing in that infrastructure and having a critical mass of carriers is pretty low. Zest even played a carrier “rush” off of 2.5 bases in the latest GSL match vs Rogue.
This is even more abusable in lower leagues where closing out a game is difficult.
Tbh in sc2 the concept of unit tiers is kind of moot. You can get out “T3” units at 5 minutes. I feel like tiers apply more to something like AoE where you have expensive cost barriers between clearly defined civ tiers.
The meta except in TvT (now thaks to raven disable), is about hitting where the army is not located, how many T players do you see wanting to fight direct fights against Z?, most of the time you will see them clearing creep, trying to deny expansions and run away, and pushing/siege before the Z arrives, it’s never like ‘‘Yeah, the main Z army is there, let’s smash it’’ and cross the entire creep looking for the kill. Same with P, unless you are doing a timing, is not a good idea looking for the Z army to start a fight, when you see a lot of dancing instead fighting is because fightint is not that easy, that goes for both sides, sure P imba, but we see a lot of dancing from golden armada, they never go direct to the fight once they reach 200/200.
Hey look its the guy with the worst arguments of all time showing up to try and argue again. When he’s not arguing he also is mistaken for Captain Obvious.
This is so ignorant to how TvZ works it’s mind blowing. Terrans macro comes in waves while Zerg can bank then make one giant macro punch. This means a Terran has to trade by definition to stay in the game. Those hit and run tactics you see are meant to force the Zerg to spend larvae on zerglings instead of drones so the mere fact that they made Zerglings is a huge win for the terran and then the terran collects dozens and dozens of kills with that harass which is by definition meant to trade against the zerglings to force him to make even fewer drones.
But you say the Terran isn’t looking for direct conflict? Wtf? Terran isn’t looking for BAD TRADES and will run away anytime it is a bad trade regardless of if it is a big army or a small one. He is looking for GOOD TRADES which BY DEFINITION is about forcing direct fights. You MUST trade and to do that you MUST force fights or the Zerg makes nothing but drones. This is THE VERY BASIC CONCEPTS OF TVZ.
Yes, and the game against P is similar, hitting when the army is not big, or when the army is not there.Lategame is that, trading and being efficient, if you go cheese/all in, you are doing it because you get some benefit from it, if not a direct win, you will trade some units for a base that will give you room to get into the mid game.
Cheeses and all ins have been a part of the game for years, remember when P had to cheese/all in every game in pvz until this sky meta and many times you still see P players cheesing if they are not confident in going sky. P probable has been the race most forced to cheese in the history of the game.
The reality is as follows. ZvP late game is ultimately balanced at the highest level (pro level not GM) both skill wise and balance per se, although in a very unhealthy spot since the VR buff because Skytoss transitions happens to early, so we end up missing a lot of fun mid tier unit interactions during the mid-game (unless there is an all in), and late game are very stalematish.
ZvP late game is P favored for anything below that, because un-optimal sky toss crushes un-optimal Zerg late-game when played anywhere at a similar level. Nice thing is that queen timings are able to prevent late game from happening most of the times since it takes a lot of precise play to stop if the P is abusing early Stargate or rushing carriers.
And for the love of God, anyone who is arguing that it is ok that Protoss gets to turtle into Skytoss is insane from a gameplay (not balance) perspective. Producing carriers at the 5 minute mark should Never be viable, and I am glad Zest got punished for it, let us hope that P players never find a way to do that safely because that would spell the doom of the MU. Imagine all the crying that we would have if Z was able to produce BL (which Is the weakest capital ship of the game) by the 5 minute mark. It is simply insane. ZvP clearly needs changes.
In my opinion the problem is battery overcharge + VR buff combo. If it was just one I think MU would be fine, but when they are together they open the door to the cancerous play of sitting back with Static D while going directly to skytoss.
I wish you were able to express your ideas more clearly. But assuming I understood, what you said makes no sense. As I said, match up is balanced, so both sides have an incentive to rush and harass the other, and right now I would say it is pretty even as Z and P are both throwing a lot of early aggression to slow or outright kill the opponent. The problem is that Toss can decide to just turtle, and force the Zerg to all in or go to the late game scenario which is extremely stressful for both sides, and usually end up being slugfests. The whole sequence of the matchup is broken, it used to be like this in a macro game that reached a late game scenario Gateway -> Roaches/Hydra/Ling-Banes -> Robo/templar -> Lurker/Viper -> Skytoss -> Skyzerg (not as precise but this was the general gist.)
Right now a macro game is -> Gateway -> Roach/Hydra/Ling-Bane -> Skytoss -> Skyzerg. Skipping everything in between. I understand P is not meant to be as rigid, but skipping the robust mid game armies just makes for a boring MU.
Not exactly sure who these 6 Protoss players are, but I personally think it’s fairly balanced now. Like I’ve said many times to you now, Protoss late game has been in an absolutely horrid state for years and it wasn’t until they added the vray/tempest/high templar buffs that late game ACTUALLY became a viable choice for Protoss against Zerg once again. The reason why Zerg players are scared of playing the late game is because Protoss has a fair chance of winning now that they have a legitimate set of tools to properly macro into the late game and fight late game units. I’m not going to go into another endless argument with you on this.
But let me ask you this again: how does it feel losing your 1-2 base allin strategies?
Bout time this clown shows up. You’re 1 of the 6 players.
Did you not read the part of my post where I said “I am playing protoss this season” ?? You realize I’m talking about what my opponents do to me?
I know you only read and comment on things that you imagine in a feeble attempt to support your dying argument but its pretty pathetic when you just flat out make things up.
And then in your advanced state of delusions, you think the best zerg player in the world is afraid to play macro games vs Zest because protoss has “tools to get there” lol. You are more insane than CNN when it comes to spreading propaganda. Protoss has weapons to kill zerg at any given moment in the game, I do it all the time without mapped out builds imagine what top level players are capable of.
Oh I read your post loud and clear. But just as you are incapable of comprehending anything that I say, I’ve stopped caring about what you have to say in response to what I say. That’s why for every ridiculous post you make, I only plan on making 1 roast in response because dragging it out any further is pointless with you.
You are a true example of why one should never argue with a stupid person - they only try to drag you down. No objective discussion, no proper debate, only delusions and illusions. Keep swimming in them
Oh you read my post loud and clear?? That why when I said that Terrans always all in’d me while I’m playing protoss… you proceed to say “Tired of losing with your 1 and 2 base all ins” As if I’m the one all inning people LOL. Every single post you make just proves what a complete fool you are.
I wonder what college has taught you, cause your reading comprehension skills are at a 3rd grade level at best.
Lolol protoss seat and not fight what a shame he go to real army instead lose units left and right just for slow down zerg eco