The truth about the state of SC2

General Discussion
1

  1. First let’s talk facts. The player base is down hugely. I see the same 10 players in 1v1 ranked at any time of day, on my account that fluctuates about 300 mmr. That means there are possibly barely even 1,000 people active on the ladder for a game that used to have 100,000 active ranked users.

  2. Why is this game dying steadily? Why aren’t these new giant prizepool tourneys helping the gamer pool out? The gameplay is the exact same thing over and over. There used to be variables like getting a depot on 7 or 8 for a quicker banshee or tank push. That’s gone with 12 worker starts. There’s no more getting into a micro position and crushing an opponent you are smarter and more skilled than.

Now, it’s either 1 of 2 or 3 macro openers, with the occasional proxy rax build. And even if they catch the opponent with the 2 rax, the game will still be a 20 minute borefest because the zerg will have ravagers pushing out and creep advantage or the toss will stick a disruptor in a warp prism. It’s basically the same exact thing over and over.

Terran vs Terran is the absolute worst. Might as well called “who builds a second starport faster vs Terran”. You can literally look at a pro game that is dead even and whoever gets that second starport up and running first wins 90% of the time. That’s boring.

  1. Why does nobody want to watch? Why does a $100k prizepool tourney only have 3k viewers? Because it gets boring seeing the same thing over and over. 4 bases for both players at 6:30. Zerg with 4 hatcheries at 4 minutes. I dare say the game was in a better state when Nydus and zerg drops were basic tech. At least the games had some real action.

  2. Too many jack of all trade units now. “Hey, are you a terrible player who wants to play 20+ minute games vs a player 3x your skill and intelligence and maybe even win?”. Of course the answer is yes. “Build one cyclone, a couple a marines, and two ravens. Now build a couple tanks and siege them basically anywhere. Congratulations, you just wasted 20 minutes of a superior players time!”.

You know your game is in a terrible state when the closest thing to excitement is 20 lings doing a runby. The hilarious thing about these runbys as well is, they only happen because players still haven’t figured out how to build 3 depots around a bunker or pylons near a cannon or tucking a single zealot or adept in their minerals.

Final point. Starcraft 2 hasn’t been a strategy game for years now. The amount of players who burrow banelings, make strategic expansions like in Brood War with a couple high templars and cannons, etc, are low. The game has become a clobbering fest similar to Super Smash Brothers, except without the hype and feel that those games have. It’s quite literally just boring.

And just LOOK at Starcrafts pros. They all look physically and emotionally MISERABLE despite some of them having earned more than a million dollars in prizes. Dark looks like he could receive a phone call that his family died and he wouldn’t even blink. Serral looks like a Zombie that had it’s testosterone abilities removed. Showtime looks like Starcraft caved his face in an imploded type way.

Starcraft quite literally killed Incontrol. I don’t like the guy but I feel for him. He hated playing this game yet had to do it for a living. If you ever tuned into his stream, you could tell he hated playing this game.

The funny thing is, I’d be playing Brood War right now instead of posting this, but alas they ‘remastered’ the game and no matter what internet settings I have, the game lags and stutters. And the game is also dead so everyone from Peru and Korea comes onto the US server to play, forcing a totally miserable experience.

Don’t know what’s left for RTS, maybe Age of Empires or Warcraft 3? I’m sure they ruined Warcraft 3 as well, since that balding Grubby guy doesn’t even stream it from what I saw.

I miss what used to be a strategy game. With these giant maps with 16 bases each, it’s just the same thing over and over. Anything new gets punished easily at Grandmaster level, even by a mediocre player.

Example: Old TvP. Superior Terran makes a helion or banshee, uses superior micro and gains massive advantage through drop/harass. Terran follows through with a push while expanding or playing standard and wins the game with his next push due to being better.
New TvP: Protoss has had 2nd Nexus up for 3 minutes by the time the Banshee arrives. Any probes he loses he can chrono boost immediately. He likely has a third nexus started at this time. If the protoss has built a shield battery or phoenix the Terran is massively behind even if killing 10+ workers.

Best case scenario the Terran has a minimal advantage, Protoss gets to realize Terran has slower Stim and Upgrades, goes blink double forge and Terran is behind no matter what. Terran is now forced to do a Siege Tank push. Protoss delays push losing shields on their entire army. Protoss moves behind two shield batteries and now has full shields and wins the fight.

As you can see, defenders advantage is just too insane in the current meta. This makes the game BORING. And no, watching Clem do a couple marine drops at a time isn’t exciting because you know Serral or whoever can just hold down ‘D’ after to immediately recover. I think we’ve all seen enough TvZ’s or PvZ’s where the protoss has harassed endlessly and initiated every play but then the Zerg A clicks with lurker/hydra and wins no matter what.

And this applies to every matchup. As a zerg, you can’t justify outmicroing and outsmarting your opponent with a Ravager timing at their third when you have to cross a giant map, in which time the toss could simply start 5 shield batteries and build a 4th nexus on the other side. The bases are so accessible, it’s insane. In Brood War, you really have to think before taking a third in every matchup except PvT. And even in PvT, there are situations you have to hesitate.

The easy to way to put this is as such.
10 Minutes into Brood War game, both players might still be on 1 base in some cases (other than Z which will be on 2).
10 Minutes into Starcraft 2 game. Both players on 5 bases sometimes 6. That’s not an RTS anymore. It’s a button spamming tower defense simulator.

The game deserves to die. Stop tuning into these tourneys and pretending to watch when we know very well 90% of viewers put it on a second screen in the background and simply hope their favorite player wins.

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I am not trying to imply anything here but when I see Serral I think of an adderall addiction. I am sure it’s pure coincidence, though.

If you want to talk about physical characteristics that make a good SC2 pro, do you think fast twitch or slow twitch muscle fibers are preferable? I was reading a paper that people who are good at SC2 have a different brain structure. They have a lot more structure to the parts of their brains that process visual information. I mean, that would make sense. The question is then if this is genetic or environmental. If it’s environmental then people could be trained to be like that by using SC2. SC2 players score really well on certain kinds of tests which make them desirable for certain kinds of jobs, such as airforce pilots. Being able to think quickly and under pressure, handle complex controls, great visual processing skills, are all things that SC2 pros are good at. So if this can be trained, then it would be smart to include SC2 as part of the pilot training curriculum.

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Honestly it might be fun to play WoL SC2 in some custom matches, who tf needs ladder anyway, nobody played ladder in Brood War either.

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I agree with OP two points:

  • defender advantage, indeed is insane in this game, you need OVERWHELMING advantage in supply to crush your opponent for example 70 vs 20 supply army - this is mostly due to idiotic siege-type units like liberator, siege tank, lurker and disruptor which literally prevent both sides to directly engage. You have to somehow snipe these units first before you can engage. By the way should zerg be allowed to even have siege units like lurkers ? Zerg is a swarm race, not turtle race.

  • too many bases. Yes, in Brood war, bases were quite distant from each other, and you had to plan your expansion carefully. In SC2 maps contains clusters of bases 5-6 bases very close to each other which can be easily taken without much effort. Why ? Is this Sim City or something. This literally makes economy to sky rocket after 5 min. You have to do so many things at once, that most players’ brains don’t even have capacity. (APM, multitasking etc.)

Another thing that i’d like to mention is that game has been completely destroyed by so called ‘gimmicks’ - teleporting BCs, spammable nukes, mass cyclones, mass widow mines, spammable nydus, shield batteries, units that kill too much stuff with a single detonation, widow mines, banes, disruptors which makes the game unfair and annoying.

On top of that there are ladder problems with tons of smurfs and possibly hackers who refuse to improve and rather would destroy someone else’s experience by cheating and lowering MMR to avoid playing on their normal level.

My 2 cents.

1 Like
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Blizzard needs to vary the map pool more and return mineral patches BACK to normal
Facts.

But any changes at this point are not going to happen. Blizzard used to be a company that didn’t give up on their games. This changed and now any game that don’t please investors - Acti-Bliz simply don’t want to support it, aside from allowing the servers to stay up, which IMO is worse then just shutting them down. It’s more of a PR issue then anything and it’s sad to see a company that had a good reputation turn to the greedy philosophy that if a game don’t make millions of dollars annually, investors get sooky and the plug gets pulled. I personally think that Acti-Blizzard hates E-Sports or don’t Believe in them, but they still design their games with E-Sports in mind simply to “Draw” in more players. The second the game slips on that scene they give up.

Deadgame.

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Sad thing is - if Acti-Blizz was some mediocre, low budget company i’d forgive them, but they are multi-million dollar companies, one of the largest in video game industry. And they can’t spend few bucks to fix dying game ? I’m pretty sure few tweaks to the game here and there would change the way game is perceived and attracted new players, but they prefer to leave this game as it is, until it bleeds to death.

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Investors arent people who meet up with the ceo.
The ceo and finance people look at what markets do. and adjust there business accordingly.

An indie company would try to keep the game afloat seeing its a source of revenue no matter how small.

A larger company, would rather ditch it because those few pennies added to there millions is not worth the time or money and can better be spent on something new that has increased revenue.

The small company will keep stable updates to prevent the game from dying and making it better over time. Or atleast try to do so.

The big company, only looks at the numbers, destroying user bases and experiences of players because of it. By shutting it down, step by step, decrease fundings for updates, tournaments etc.

The reason why starcraft 2 is falling out of fashion is because World of Warcraft, Overwatch, and soon to be Diablo 4, should theoretically earn them more money per dev time, then on starcraft 2.

The logical ethical thing for a true blizzard fanboy, should be to boycott all the newest releases in favour of keeping the old ones alive.

But reality shows, that all the ppl who used to play starcraft 2. quit, will play the next best thing, and pay money for it. (sc remastered)

Thus showing that the finance people are right about getting more bang for the buck per dev, if its NOT invested in starcraft 2.

Declining user base = death of a game because there the money just isnt there anymore.

Blizzard of old, would rather spend money to keep games thriving and making them better, even during rough periods. wich created a hardcore playerbase. (look at scbw)

The new “lizzard” releases games in poor condition, sees backlash and quickly pulls out onto the next thing. (wc3 reforged)

Diablo 4 will not be supported for a long period. If its succesfull, Devs goto diablo 5, If it isnt, the IP will be forgotten.

They tried to do the same thing with overwatch → overwatch 2.

This is the new norm. Where quality and longevity of the game is less important to a studio, then the money they earn with there 1 hit wonder. Yet the gamers are rewarding them for it, by shilling tons of cash to play the next best thing.

The reason why world of warcraft was such a success for such a long time was the exact opposite of what they are doing now. It was because world of warcraft was always cared for, during rough patches, but also during thriving patches. Thats what creates longevity.

Every time you see a new CoD release, this is at the heart of that. New release means people are much more likely to buy either the copy of the game, or spend money in the new microtransaction store.

But when the newness wears off, updates slow down, bugs dont get fixed as handily, dev time is being pulled out. etc.

And they let games die off, in a cycle.

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What is the role of the CEO with investors?

Maintaining Investor Trust and Shareholder Value Through a CEO Transition. When evaluating any company, investors look to the CEO for guidance, as CEOs are the bridge to the Street. As the face of the company, the CEO has to earn the trust of investors, customers, and employees.

Removed myself from this thread since it’s basically a troll thread now.

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I don’t know why you guys are talking about CEO trust and such. This is an Activision game. Everything is purely run by numbers. Just look at Diablo Immortal.

People are also so dumb now, that companies can pull stunts like Diablo Immortal, say 'we regret making $500 million dollars off of vulnerable low self esteem whales", and then go on to their next product. Which of course is Diablo 4 (which looks terrible and will hit record numbers)

Which brings me to the major point here: They did everything they did not to balance the game, but to make sure games would last longer. They had some type of shareholder meetings where development was told that the longer a game lasts, the more time sponsors are advertised.

They vastly underestimated the audience and how RTS entertainment works, and essentially destroyed the game as a spectator sport in addition to having it be fulfilling to play at the same time. It’s not fun to fast expand every game into 2 shield batteries with an oracle flying around. It’s not fun to be on 5 bases with zerg at 8 minutes. It’s not fun to have to A-click around creep for 8 minutes removing tumors before pushing. And it’s not fun at all to watch that, either.

Just look at recent tournament viewership numbers. The WardiTV map contest is getting 2,000 viewers, many of them whom are probably bots- lets say 30% bots to be generous- so he’s getting around 1600 viewers for an absolutely ridiculous lineup including the likes of Clem, MaxPax, Hero, Solar, Dark, etc. The funny thing is I guess some of the maps are smaller, but the damage has already been done. It’s just not a fun game to watch.

I even ended up minimizing the last few GSL finals with Tastosis and realized I was only watching because I enjoyed hearing them talk to eachother, the games were just boring. Back in the day, though. Even during the first expansion with mothership cores being OP and proxy Stargates being crazy, and other imbalances… the games were WORTH watching because they varied almost every time in some way.

Now it’s just the same over and over. 8 minutes 4 bases.

1 Like
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So you don’t want to watch Starcraft2? Don’t watch it. You don’t want play anymore? Uninstall it. It is really not a good idea to come on an SC2 forum, and try to spew toxic nonsense to this already fragile community. Why do you even say all that? HERE? What you should do is create a nice channel on Discord called SC2 murderers, where all of you disrepectful fools can meet and spit your poison to each other’s faces.

You did not talk about the Wardi Korean Royale tournament that got almost 3 seasons funded by an overwhelming support of the community. World Team League is also quite popular at the moment, and China opening its SC2 server is also a good thing.

Also, how can you really even think that Dark looks depressed because he thinks the “game is dead”. If he is depressed, it is only because its military service is right around the corner, and he knows that when he goes it will pretty much mean the end of his career. I remember that in an interview with Dark a question was: “What do you want to do after SC2?”, and visibly upset, he just answered: “I don’t want to think about that”. If I knew I was about to stop being able to live from my passion, I would be depressed too…

And I can’t even believe that you dare say SC2 killed InControl. Even if he hated playing this game, which I don’t think is true, it doesn’t mean it killed him. How RIDICULOUSLY absurd. If people died from hating their job, there would not be a lot of people left alive. This is just another product of your sick mind.

Finally, even if what you said had some truth in it, noone will ever listen to you. Developers will never want to hear the opinion of the guy who says the “game is dead”; i’m afraid that this thread is just a waste of everyone’s time.

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No,no, they’re called inFestors. But I agree, they should get their charisma stat raised for sure.

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Wasn’t it you who said that most SC2 players develop OCD ? Which might actually make sense since they spam the same buttons for +15 minutes of the game.