The only reason Protoss have fewer tournament wins if that they are fewer extremely skilled players at the very top.
Zerg have Serral, Reynor, Dark and Rogue.
Terran have Maru, Innovation and TY.
Protos have no players at the caliber, maybe Trap and Stats if you are generous.
So that Protoss have fewer tournament wins is the consequence of them lacking truly great players at the very top, it is has nothing to do with balance.
Exactly, all the races now are in perfect balance, none needs a buff or nerf. Good call on blizz side to stop supporting sc2 at this point.
A lot of second places against Z with many unbalanced games that in the end gave the series to Z
Itās not like no P reached a point in which you can say they donāt win because they are not at the right place and donāt reach finals or something because they are bad.Yes, they are few, but every time they reach finals they face Z and lose because the matchup was imbalanced for years and still has its problems.Serral is good, but he hasnāt lost a series vs P in years if Iām not mistaken.
Yeah in gsl Terrans were dominating awhile. Reason for that is that Terran had most pros, because in broodwar Terran was best race and most of top pros also happened to play Terran, which than transitioned to sc2. And pro teams disbanded, protoss has currently not that many top players, remember players like MC in HOTS? While there always used to be a lot of Terran players! But there was so many players from each raceā¦ Also protoss was always beaten by dirty zerg, PvZ used to be like 44% for a long timeā¦
I was remember the boss toss MC they was glorious
I donāt think that is the issue.
I think Protoss design is too rigid.
With Terran if the game gets into that crazy low economic back stab stage then you can get a lot of efficiency out of marines and medivacs. Micro players like Maru take full advantage of this.
With Zerg you also get that same kind off efficiency with lategame cracklings.
Protoss you have zealots to full fill that function but zealots are fire and forget. You know they are going to get slaughtered -the only question is how many are they going to take with them?
So IMO Protoss in general makes too big steps with their increments in power(meaning one unit like stalker and zealot all of a sudden brings a lot of power in one unit - unlike zerg and terran which takes a lot of small steps to get to that same level) and they donāt have real late game efficiency units like Terran and Zerg.
And all this culminates to Protoss being overpowered on the ladder in TvP and being under powered at the top level among the very few that can squeeze out every little efficiency out of every unit.
The thing about Protoss is that the race have a terrible design: it is overpowered against everybody but it is weak vs. the top players in the world.
Trap, Stats and Zest are also not in the same league compared to the best Zerg and Terran players, at least right now. Just look at last GSL, these three were doing terrible mistakes and questionable decisions everywhere.
I would not necessarily say so.
personally, i thought Stats 2018 was strong, and in my opinion it deserved to win something.
I want to see how well you hold up your victories when your race gets nerfed over the course of 2 years. Shut up
Exactly
And it is because the race has been LAZY NOOB for long time they didnāt need to practice as hard as other races like look sOs won off cheeses but now things changed and they saw reality
In fact, the skill difference between Protoss pros vs T and Z pros is even more monumental than what youāve described. Protoss as a race is already incredibly OP, and probably broken right now, but yet their Pros is constantly able to compete being carried by the OP race.
so What is your solutions ? Delete Protoss?
It has nothing to do with the players. Look at the last blizzcon. Classic plays rogue. Beats him 4-3 using amazingly crafty builds. Probably the greatest PVZ game ever played he used to beat rogue in the final game, the single greatest game ever played in PVZ by a player who knew that may have been the last hurrah for him and his career if he lost. This guy was smashing hero marine, TY, etc was like 97-3 vs Terran in pro competition (classics anti Terran play was essentially unbeatable). Then loses to dark 4-0 because all of the crafty builds he used vs rogue were already seen.
Thatās the issue with PVZ. Zerg essentially has no builds. If you see dark play 5 series in a row it doesnāt tell you anything. Same for serral, same for reynor etc. Zerg at a high level is just macro play with good reactions. This doesnāt mean zerg players donāt have skill, but itās just a fact that zerg is mostly good scouting and macro play in PVZ and picking a good reaction to smash whatever is coming your way. However protoss canāt just sit back and macro and play reactive because the race is quite inflexible when it comes to tech. Protoss has to play with misinformation and trickery and once a lot of protoss builds are scouted or known, they are shut down hard. This is why probably in the last 5-7 years almost zero protoss has beaten a high ranked zerg in a best of 7 series. Itās why classic beats rogue and then gets 4-0 by dark. Why zest beats serral at IEM and then gets 4-0ed by rogue in the next series. Is rogue better than serral? Or did zest just use his best builds and rogue gets to see them just before playing the guy? The answer is clearly the latter.
It has nothing to do with the players. It largely has to do with the matchup design where protoss has to do early damage but there are only a very small number of builds that can do damage and even if a good player tweaks them once the tweak is seen the whole build gets shut down. If I were blizzard, I would just figure out how to bolster protoss harass in the early game.
But since 1 will never happen because of various trolls here who have no life that continuously create smurf acc after acc on these forums. The quickest way I see of getting close to 1. is by Attacking extremely biased Protoss posts with extremely biased anti Protoss posts. This needs to happen far more in quantity and extremeness.
As far as I observed, you kept saying how Protoss players are weak and carried by an OP race. I will by happy if you try to support your claim by evidence.
Have a honest and objective discussion about Protoss balance.
Feel free to join. I find the thread very valuable, it already changed my opinions about a few things.
Protoss has a lot of issues in PvZ. But they are as follows.
1, The inability to clear creep without requiring the entire army.
2, The inability of Protoss to harrass and kill drones in the midgame.
3, The lack of viable build orders/comps and strategies other than the adept printer or immortal archon
4, The fact that you need to do early game damage to play on even footing
5, Lategame stalemates where there is nothing much Protoss can do other than camp behind batteries
6, The efficiency of the baneling as harrasment unit, +2 bane kills a whole mineral line and kills toss economy so easily. Before Baneling were too good vs toss units now its nerfed its not as bad
7, The fragile build up before an planned attack. Where Protoss can easily die to a mutalisk attack or lurker timing or roach bane timing. (Rogue abuses this the most)
You compare this to PvT. Does it feel that toss has much more freedom in the matchup ? I think so i could feel it as a viewer. Even though T units trade better Protoss is stronger in PvT. Z units trade slightly worse but P is much weaker.
How to solve, Buff Protoss harrasment options in early game vs Zerg. Design change of oracle, remove stasis ward add void stasis where 1 biological unit is trapped in stasis for 14 seconds for 75 energy. Think of interference matrix vs Zerg. I think midgame Protoss harrasment is massively better with this change vs Zerg. And doesnāt buff toss in TvP.
Buff toss lategame units like VR, and Tempest. They should be 3 and 4 supply each. Make late game toss like Mech vs Zerg where the army is better but can still lose if Zerg takes a good engagement with neurals.
Buff the sentry colossus playstyle by making colossus better vs Zerg. Return back the old 2018 chargelots. Revert the observer nerfs and cost to immortals and prisms and Buff observer movement speed.
Make adepts useful in midgame while early game adepts remain an option. Make adepts be able to shoot air and charge should benefit adept movement speed. Iād imagine they might become the creep cleaners and harrasment units in the midgame. Where you can shade out while clearing creep analogous to Marine and medivac, scan but with a Protoss touch.
If this toss is a reality, (haha It never will due to community hatred and anti protoss sentiment) Iām sure Protosses will start winning B07ās against Zerg and the Zerg complaints that they win too much will die down as there will be Protoss champs that reduce the amount of Zerg premier wins. Zerg will be less favored at winning Tournaments as they need to worry 2 races rather than 1 and worrying about 2 races will significantly reduce the amount of Z champs. Let alone a PvT finals much more likely to happen.
That is not the problem, any unit can kill creep tumors. The problem is that protoss player are too lazy.
This. Every pro Zerg is going to go hatch ā gas ā pool and then 3rd at ~2:30. And the only timing for Toss to do anything is when the Zerg is around 40 drones.
The only exception to this is uber aggressive Zergs like Dark who used to do some big all ins around 20 drones but because they have so much success in macro games you dont see it so much. Still see aggression occassionally like Solar using his OL on the pervert pillar seeing Zest was cutting corners and drone drilled and killed him. But Dark or Rogue are not scared of a macro game against Toss so they might only mix in agression in 1 game in a 5 or 7 game series. The one game Rogue did that ridiculous early roach attack was the only game Stats was able to win in their GSL finals. He could have 4-0ād if he just macroād every game.
I also feel protoss lack ways to harass mineral lines effectively compare to terran. Basically, protoss have to endure WM drops for the first minutes and then if they manage it well then they get a chance into the mid game.
Protoss have oracles but they can be shut down pretty easily. Terran sit comfortably until blinks kicks in and even then, terran has become pretty good at holding itā¦
I reach you on to a lot of your suggestions, a better way for P to harass mineral lines in the early to mid game is great idea. A change to oracle could be an effecient way to do it!
Adepts shooting air would add versatility to the protoss army reducing its rigidity, would help to clear creep when mutas are out!