The Harstem meme?

General Discussion
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h ttps://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/esa6r2/the_state_of_pvp/

Can anyone explain Harstem for me? The guy’s best matchup is P vs P. He’s winning 61% vs Toss on aligulac. His other matchups are 55%.

Harstem is the SOLE reason the void ray got nerfed. I’m not joking here… he demanded Blizzard nerf the void ray, essentially, because sky toss was too good (in P vs P). He couldn’t foresee how HE would lose if they didn’t act quickly.

If there were ever to be a “year of harstem,” he would spam Blizzard asking them to cut his hands off cause “he might be OP.” What’s the deal with pro Toss players, in general? Is there a conspiracy that the Toss players are involved in, as well?

No one wins any tournaments with Toss. I’ve watched Harstem only do all-ins vs Zerg for years straight. The classic “fake third base all-in, every single game.” He talks about how easy P vs T is, and then gets bopped every tournament in that matchup. Wth gives? What is this guy smoking?

So many Toss players out there would probably love to see a pro actually advocate for their race getting sensible buffs, so they could be on an even playing field with the other races. Even if they’re noob, they’d love the idea that improving/reaching the races ceiling could actually mean something. As is, you don’t even get on the podium if you play your race to its potential.

What do they do though? This… nonsense. The only matchup that ever crosses their mind is the mirror matchup. His best matchup?

Anytime you see his win rate on ladder in P vs P, it’s around 80% or something ridiculous. Does that sound like a coin flip? The other day, I saw him do a variation of my void ray fast expand build. He beat Stats with it.

These guys don’t do any innovation. They’ve blindly opened 2 gate, every game, since the first day of beta in WoL, and they couldn’t tell you why… and now they want to tell you P vs P is a problem, but they have no ideas how to fix it. Amazing.

The BC has no counter. The thor slam dunks on every unit that isn’t the disruptor. The viking trades well with every unit that isn’t an immortal. Your mothership is a clown unit. Your tempest kills nothing in the game. Thus, Terran can make as many tanks or liberators as they want. P vs P? Come on.

I had to ramble. I hate every Toss pro, as every Toss player should. This is what they use their power/voice for… to try to tell you there is no comeback mechanic? If there is ONE reason for why Toss ratings will always be meaningless, it’s because of how unfair disruptors are as a comeback mechanic.

The Protoss dream… just one day… getting to hear about how to improve a matchup besides the mirror matchup. Priorities for the worst race in the game. The race that has yet to lead a single period in all of LotV.

Ex warcraft players keeping Protoss a doormat race. These guys hate macro. They want every game to be determined by micro. This is far more important to them than balance. It’s tiring.

tl;dr if you’re winning far more than 50%… the matchup isn’t nearly as much of a coin flip as you’re suggesting, thus… talk about something else that’s more plausible.

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PvP and ZvZ have always been the worst designed matchups in my opinion. PvP is rock paper scissors with build openers and ZvZ is a never ending ling bane tug of war madness where at every waking moment 1 baneling can make or break a game. I feel both these matchups were sacrificial to save non mirror matchups, e.g. that blizzard couldn’t make both work and chose to prioritize the non mirror matchups. For example, ZvZ really needs the baneling nerfed or queen/spine buffed, but that’s never going to happen because it would break ZvT and ZvP.

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Exactly what I think about Harstem.

Man…he is a nice guy…but come on. He always says something about protoss being OP but never wins a major tournament.

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P vs P has always been my best matchup, simply because I put more effort into scouting and doing different things than others. And… it is the one macro matchup (outside of facing stalker, disruptors).

I just went 19-1 in P vs P on Korea and would have been 20-0 if curiosity didn’t get the better of me (way ahead in game). That’s at GM. Does that sound like a coin flip to you? I’m far from the luckiest person ever, that’s for sure.

That’s how much better my build is than standard play. These guys seriously think P vs P was optimized the first day of beta in WoL. We just go 2 gate before cyber. “Oh… someone proxied me. Someone has figured out, YOU MUST PROXY NOW. Let me do that for the next 5 years.” These guys are clowns.

No matter what build you do, no matter the matchup… there’s at least 1 counter to it. However, these guys play in a way that embraces coin flips rather than looking to reduce luck.

When I play P vs P, I hope I don’t play against Rob and his caveman all-in or someone playing similarly as I am (an even match is much harder than vs standard). Those are the only two concerns/problems in the early game. Well, that and Printf…

The biggest issue in P vs P is how stalker, disruptor is the ultimate comeback mechanic… People just do w/e is trendy, though. Stalker, disruptor still forces the other guy to outplay you drastically, and it means they can always win the game via 1 hit. It’s more abusive than cannon rushing.

The only reason it’s not the biggest issue is because people just do w/e their opponent is doing atm. As is, everyone proxy robos cause they’ve never used their head to begin with. In a couple months, everyone will think you have to do “x” to win, and it will be a completely different way of playing.

SC 2 is bigger than P vs P. You’re playing the worst race… spread the concern. It’s like these guys have an inferiority complex. The best Toss player in the world could be ranked 68th, and they would still be talking about how the better player ALWAYS WINS – unless it’s P vs P.

Enough is enough.

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any counter build(with at least 70% winrate) vs 3 hatch zerg?:slight_smile:

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In HotS, I used to reactively cannon rush the natural + chrono out zealots. In LotV, though, I’ve just hoped to not encounter it :slight_smile: Luckily, I’ve only seen 3 hatch like 1% of the time, if that.

While I don’t know the counter, I assume… if it’s their least commonly used build then it must have an obvious counter. I know most pro Toss players laugh anytime a Zerg doesn’t open with gas. Something about they will win 100% of the time with adepts.

If you figure out the 100% adept winning build, let me know :slight_smile:

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i mean 3rd hatchery at 3:00(or even before). this is obviously too greedy and should have counter build if u scout his 3rd base

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Make 2 adepts. Win…

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u said this is counter build? than show me serral game with fast 3rd base(around 3 minute mark) losing to 2 adepts

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Forget to take ur frustration meds again?

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If a zerg rushes out that fast of a third, he only has 1 queen when normally he’d have two. Slow lings can’t stop double adept since the lings die so quickly. It’s not possible to get on top of the adepts and kill them without losing all your lings, barring a scenario where he makes like 16 lings.

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again. hatcher-gas-pool-hatchery. sometimes 3rd hatchery before queens, sometime after 2 queens. what counter build?

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Your scouting probe can see the timing of his third and if it’s before queens then they die to double adept.

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and why progamers never do it? and what if 3rd after queens?

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They do. 20 characters.

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if this is counter build - they will do it every game. and zergs should lose every game. but this is wrong. 90% of games zerg build 3rd hatchery at 2:30-3:00

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If you want a strategy that has a 100% win-rate, then sorry to disappoint, that’s not how the game works.

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atleast 70%. counter build should win most games.

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Not even Serral has a 70% win-rate. Your expectations aren’t realistic.

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On this subject. I noticed my opponent (Flick) was 26-7 vs Zerg, so I knew he had some secret cheddar sauce. Last night, I looked at his replays and he appears to do a 1 base adept all-in every game.

It reminded me of light (Romanian Toss/warcraft guy). He used to do this build a lot. It seems like this build has a lot of success on ladder.

Should pros use this build some? Wouldn’t it counter a lot of fast 3 hatch builds (I guess they should notice a lack of natural)? Pros and cons? Even as someone who hates all-ins, it seems like maybe it would be good to incorporate.