The Adept Upgrade Change Is Flawed

General Discussion
1

While sounding like a cool concept and one that would be fun to try and put into practice, the adept isn’t really set up gain advantages with it’s shade.

It is fun to try and use shade to initiate combat but as far as a core unit goes the adepts sucks and getting a 6s, 60% attack speed increase isn’t going to make it better than a 45% passive attack speed increase.

Right now the upgrade is all or nothing at the moment. You shade onto the opponents army, you either win or you die since it’s entirely committal, and the adept is not a zergling, or a pack of lings. It’s an investment that has to win the shading engagement or it wasn’t worth it because Protoss as a race relies on efficient trades.

Now being entirely all or nothing during engagements is one criticism of the upgrade, the second being all the other times you get a worse off adept in a meta that it’s already not used, but actually trying to use shade to initiate combat and take advantage of the attack boost is impractical.

It’s insanely awkward often giving your opponent a long time to respond to the adepts jumping in, while being to slow to be able to respond to any sort of aggression.

Do you really want to be waiting the shades teleportation delay so that you have a unit that might be able to engage the enemy if your base is being pressured, or responding to harassment, or trying to take advantage of misplay from your opponent?

TL:DR

  1. It doesn’t make it a core unit that is a viable choice over blink or charge
  2. The adept is incredibly weaker in all situations except for 6s after shade.
  3. Trying to use the ability is awkward in all situations besides just an all in jump on the opponents army play, because of the long delay before you can get the attack boost.

The current proposition really doesn’t address the core issues with the adept.

11 Likes
2

I don’t know who thought of it.

The double upgrade thing wasn’t even bad.

3 Likes
3

This Adept change is really bad and not implemented correctly.

  1. It only encourages more all-ins and worker harassment, something the Adept doesn’t need help with.

  2. It makes the Adept worse in overall combat because without Glaives the fire rate is so slow, meaning no one will build it in the mid game as a unit

  3. It makes Shade into even more of a gimmick

  4. It encourages shading Adepts on to enemy armies, overlapping with the Zealot and promoting bad gameplay.

  5. They are not buffing the HP, which they stated the Adept needs mid game against EMP’s.

Here is what they should have done to the Adept:

  • HP increased from 70/70 to 80/70
  • Adepts can now attack air
  • Glaive upgrade 45% attack speed increase is unchanged, instead 6 seconds after shading the Adept’s attack speed is increased an additional 15%.

That’s all they needed to do with the Adept and with the change they want to do to it.

They should just build it into the existing Glaive upgrade. 15% additional attack speed after shading for 6 seconds.

I don’t understand how or why they keep fumbling with the ball when it comes to the Adept by making things over complicated.

The HP changes and the new shield upgrade were solid non gimmicky changes.

They just had to do the following changes for the Adept and for the shield upgrade:

  • HP changed from 70/70 to 80/60
  • Adepts can now attack air units
  • Amplified Shielding upgrade added, now increases Adept shields by +30
  • Glaive upgrade is unchanged
  • Shade is unchanged

The current Adept change(since they deleted all the other Adept changes) is like they are jumping backwards… down an elevator shaft.

3 Likes
4

Hi im myohmind and i want the adept to be the best unit in the entire game for its cost, to be a meat shield, tons of damage, shoot everything, and be fast and incredibly annoying with harass

Trust me gais its balanced…

Shut the F up

1 Like
5

Your Terran biased mind is missing something.

The changes to the Adept that I want done(attacking air and HP increase), wouldn’t impact harassment.

Being able to attack air?. Doesn’t change worker harassment or ground performance.

Increasing the HP from 70/70 to 80/70 or 80/80?. Doesn’t change worker harassment.

6

No, they would just REPLACE ZEALOTS by being a superior marine. That’s what your plan was.

7

Myohmind will never stop… noone wants your aa adepts, even if you repeat it like 100000 times.

8

My plan is to give Protoss a stalker alternative and complement for AA.

Adepts have more in common with Stalkers than they ever do with Zealots. Anyone that keeps comparing Zealots with Adepts is very incorrect.

Lets go over Adepts and Stalkers side by side:

Stalker HP is 80/80, Adept HP is 70/70(this would be changed to 80/70 or 80/80)

Stalkers have 6 range, Adepts have 4 range

Stalkers have Blink, Adepts have Shade

Stalkers do a bonus vs armored, Adepts do a bonus vs Light

Stalkers can attack air, Adepts currently cannot(this would be changed)

Stalkers cost 125/50, Adepts cost 100/25

Now lets compare Zealots with Adepts:

Adepts have 70/70HP, Zealots have 100/50/HP

Adepts have 4 range, Zealots have melee range

Adepts have Shade, Zealots have charge

Adepts have an attack speed upgrade, Zealots have a speed upgrade

Adepts cannot attack air, Zealots cannot attack air.

Adepts do a bonus vs Light, Zealots do no bonuses vs everything.

Adepts have a slow movement speed, Zealots have a faster movement speed.

Adepts cost 100/25, Zealots cost 100

Adepts =/= Zealots, Adepts = Stalkers

9

People do, since once you realize how much good it does for the unit and usage of the unit in comps and mid game comps you will see how great the change is, and plays.

It doesn’t impact harassment.

It doesn’t impact all ins.

It doesn’t add more gimmicks to the unit.

It gives Protoss an alternative answer to Air units outside of Stalkers and Phoenix

It makes Adepts have a better mid game utility.

Because I know what I’m talking about and actually test my changes all the time with M-GM players. When people actually play my balance changes they are impressed every single time and I take pride in that. So many people expect the worse until they play the changes in game or see what the changes are.

I’ve even scripted entire test maps and even took some of the Unit Tester maps and modified it to include my changes so I could really see some interactions.

So what have you done at all besides whine on the forums with crocodile tears?

I put the work in to get things right and get treated like crap by players on the forums don’t even know basic in game unit stats.

10

I agree with Adept being able to shoot up. Heck, I see Hellion being both harass unit early into a front line late game and no one complain about it, why not Adept too?

2 Likes
11

Do you know about hellion? Cost zero gas, is a good harass unit early and a good front line late game that counter other front line units, is fast, is versatile, DEAL SPLASH DMG.
so do us the honor:
Shut the F up

2 Likes
12

Minds adepts would probably lead to adept-immortal-sentry death marches with some archons sprinkled in pvz.

Minds for some reason thinks less than a week of low quality testing means anything.
It took protoss several months to realize that they could take a free third in tvp and he thinks he can predict every single interaction with his “data”.

You get treated like crap because you love to push your ideas on everyone even when more half the forum thinks its a terrible idea. You also act obnoxious when someone refutes your idea and you completely deny it by repeating the same thing until the other person realize the whole conversation is pointless.

1 Like
13

Couldn’t agree more OP. Most people don’t actually like this adept change. It’s buffing the adepts where it really doesn’t need to be buffed (all ins, worker harass) and not helping as much in the big engagements where adepts struggle, at least in the late game.

I’m honestly not sure the adept needs a change at all this patch. They’re already making a big change to zealots, which might effect the protoss calculus of when to build zealots vs adepts vs stalkers. Maybe they should let that shake out first and then decide whether adepts need an upgrade.

I think the real core problem blizz is running into is that the adept’s design space is too close to both the zealot and stalker for comfort. That’s why people tend to use those units more frequently than the adept itself as the game goes late. Adepts become worse than zealots as a mineral dump (cuz of gas cost) and worse than stalkers because they don’t scale as well (cuz of lower range and inability to shoot up).

But, “fixing” those problems by letting the adept shoot up or whatever runs the risk of just making it a slightly better, or slightly worse, stalker, at which point people either continue to ignore it, or almost never build stalkers. (Sorry MyOh, just calling it how I see it).

Protoss didn’t really need a third gateway unit to begin with, they needed to make gateway units themselves stronger and make the “support” and special abilities for gateway units – like warp in, colossi, etc – weaker to compensate. Make stalkers more powerful, zealots bigger and a bit tankier, and keep adept in its current role as a unit for scouting, harassment and all ins. Then do something about warp ins being too strong. That’s the real direction blizz needs to go in. Toying with the gimmicks on gateway units will only get you so far.

14

It wouldn’t because the Adepts ground performance is exactly the same.

Minds for some reason thinks less than a week of low quality testing means anything. and he thinks he can predict every single interaction with his “data”.

It’s months of testing with M-GM players and getting feedback and ideas. I can predict how gameplay goes because I’ve seen gameplay of the changes in action with players of high skill.

What have you done at all besides go out of your way to target and put me down?. What have you done positively for the SC2 community?. Have you reported bugs? Do you know how to fix them?. Do you post guides and content?.

What exactly do you bring to the table?.

Half these forums suggest terrible ideas and are really terrible players themselves. Most don’t even play SC2 anymore, they tend to watch the game.

Adepts being able to attack air and having 80/70 or 80/80 HP wouldn’t replace Stalkers. Also those specific changes would make Adepts more usable in the mid game as part of the army instead of a gimmicky harassment or occasional all-in unit.

Fixing the Adept isn’t complicated. It has to be balanced similar to the Stalker and not obsessively comparing it to the Zealot when it’s widely different.

Protoss didn’t really need a third gateway unit to begin with,

They did, which is why it was added. Did you know it was originally added with an AOE attack(and another variant that was similar to the Mutalisk with a bounce) to make Protoss have a gateway solutions for dealing with large numbers of units?.

15

And Zerg have BL/Infestor death marches. If not, then Hydra/Lurker/Festor death marches. If not, then that one swarmhost/worm combo.
Zerg get to have many deathly combo but Protoss cannot?
What is your point here? The Protoss shouldn’t be able to do what Zerg and Terran do already?

2 Likes
16

Edit: I’m not talking about the late game i’m talking about an all-in attack that is possibly a better version of the current immortal-sentry. The point of these changes is to lead to interesting new plays not to make staple all-ins better.

17

The current Adept change makes Adept all-ins and Adept harassment stronger. Not make players build them in the mid game or add more utility to the unit.

Making Adepts attack air and increasing the HP a little(80/70 or 80/80) would do that job without having to touch Glaives, a vital upgrade the Adept needs since it’s attack speed is incredibly slow.

i’m talking about an all-in attack that is possibly a better

People will just build Zealots for that all-in because Adepts cost gas(you need that gas to transition out of the timing fails). So those pushes would remain the same.

Those pushes are held by Banelings, Roaches and Ravagers, all units that destroy Adepts.

18

Most people try to criticize problems they see in your ideas but you don’t like criticism. Instead of acknowledging possible problems that could come up with your ideas you get petty about by going into complete denial.

Also you seem to have this secret group of M-GM players that you have test your changes, but never bother showing replays of them. People would be less skeptical about your ideas if you actually showed some gameplay.

2 Likes
19

Adepts anti-air attack would have to be nowhere near as powerful as their current ground based one.

It would completely shut down any light air units like pheonix, Muta or Banshees.

20

I take criticism and feedback seriously, that’s why my mod is on version 4.241 at the time of this posting.

I’m always looking for testers, since some times my usual testers are not available. Also I only have some replays saved for older older versions not the lasted ones.