Hey, does anyone know why Terran commanders need armories to upgrade the engineering bays past level 1? I’ll play games as Raynor with only bio and either only level to 1 or have 2 useless structures (factory and armory) for the game.
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Level 2 upgrades are gated behind tech tree for all races, it’s just more noticeable for terrans (especially certain builds). It isn’t a huge deal. Build 2 eng bays, then 1 factory and 1 armory, and you’re good.
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to prevent you from skipping Factory and Starport (for coop, you need Medivac for vs) like what you exactly want to do.
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Ship weapon and armour upgrades also affect Raynor’s calldowns so there are definitely cases where you will want to upgrade them at least a little bit.
Otherwise, said Factory units are quite useful on many maps and comps, even if you are going Bio.
This goes to nearly all commanders really, more aparent on Terran because bio, it’s easy to forget factory.
Zerg needs Hive, Lair.
Protoss needs twilight council, fleet beacon for 3+ air upgrades.
Wynaut?
You need Citadel and Fleet Beacon for Protoss.
You need Lair and Hive for Zerg.
Why is needing Armory a surprise?
Some commanders skip this barrier entirely but it certainly isn’t a race related issue, least of all to Terran.
- Bubblegumboi has 5/5 with no tech required
- Artifactboi gets them as he finds them
- Essenceboi starts with a Primal Hive
Because that is how terran race was designed by developers long before even plans for co-op were created.
He is gated by the time research and he has 6 layers of upgrades to go through.
He is gated by time and skill.
His building cost supply.
His “real” unit cost twice as much.
This is to balance why they have no gate on basic upgrades.
I don’t think you’re applying this correctly. Tychus’s first 3 levels of upgrades take no longer than any other Terran but requires no tech building to be built. That’s what we’re talking about here.
Zeratul is also NOT gated by time and skill because it takes less time to get his upgrades than most commanders get their 3/3. Searching for fragment is a very basic skill to even play Zeratul. So I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here.
And lastly, if costing a few supply of a free 200 supply commander is your idea of a barrier to upgrades, I think you’re very much on the wrong side of the discussion. Not to mention the cost of units have 0 to do with upgrades barriers. That’s like saying Karax P0 upgrades should be free cuz his units cost a ton… I mean sure but that’s neither here or there.
Overall, the entire point of my previous post is to show OP that it is strange he questions why Armory is required. These 3 cases were just additional outlier examples that don’t follow the conventional rules. So I mean, I’m not sure what your point in quoting and debating them is at all? I understand perfectly well they are not the same, that’s why I pointed them out… to OP.
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Every race requires additional structures to reach level 2 and level 3 upgrades.
Terran requires an Armory for all level 2 and 3 upgrades.
Protoss requires a Twilight Council for level 2-3 ground upgrades and a Fleet Beacon for levels 2-3 Air Upgrades
Zerg requires a Lair for all level 2 upgrades and a Hive for all level 3 upgrades.
It’s just how it works. Different races are different.
I am saying that all three of the Commanders you listed have other things to compensate for not having gated basic upgrades.
Yes, first 3 levels of upgrades take no longer than other Terran but he only has 5 units, which mean he benefit less from the upgrade as a whole. This is why I said that he has 6 layers of upgrades to go through.
Yes, he does until you get him the masteries. Until then, he is slower than other commanders in terms of upgrades. Searching for the artifact is a skill but this “skill” is not “Basic”. I play a lot of Zeratul and sometime, I have no clue where this artifact at because the “Vision” give zero clue of it whereabouts. Zeratul upgrades are highly influenced by “map”, “skill”, and sometimes “luck”, Especially P1 and P2. P1 because without the ship, you can’t go deep inside enemy base without dying (This rarely happen tbh but it still happen). P2 because you get more chance at the vision giving you “Flat land” clue.
And that’s why Karax P0 suck. What’s your point?
What do you mean “Cost of unit has nothing to do with upgrade barrier”? If the cost is high, then you will not be able to upgrade much. This lead to the barrier actually being effective in influencing your decision: Will you make less army but more effective or more army but less effective?
Zeratul is designed to be brain dead easy to play. Just come out and say it, it’s ridiculously obvious that he is.
This is the only part of your reply that is really relevant. Those are still unconventional. Whether you choose to perceive it as a barrier to upgrades is your opinion. The point is regardless of your opinion on how unconventional these may be, requiring Armory to get to later upgrades is perfectly normal… I’m not sure why the need to get so picky about how u personally feel about Tychus, Zeratul, or Dehaka…
Again, I guess you’re not reading what’s being discussed here. But sure… let’s not derail this but I guess too late…
Being picky is why we have a discussion board in the first place.
And I am not trying to disprove your argument, I am reinforcing it by saying that “The commanders without gated upgrade has other disadvantages that compensate for this advantage and here’s why.”
I don’t get why you are trying to discredit me by saying whatever I said is Irrelevant.
I don’t get why you reply to me in the first place.
What are you trying to prove? That no gated upgrade commander without the disadvantage should be the norm? Because that’s what you are doing by well… what you just did.
I mean… what do you think I am trying to prove by saying that Tychus has 6 layers of upgrade? That Zeratul upgrade relies on “map”, “luck” and “skill”? That Dehaka army cost double and building cost supply?
Nobody’s trying to prove anything. I just shared some insights to OP.
Feels more like you’re trying to prove how well you understand the game. And that’s fine and all but your deep understanding has little to do with this particular topic. So I’m out. You go ahead keep “reinforcing” my points. Weird way to go about it though, given your tone and content in your responses.
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When you were talking about these things, you were trying to prove that I was wrong about this and that.
So yes, you did try to prove that I was wrong. But because I was trying to reinforce your point, it turned out weird and your objective became unclear. This is why I said “What are you trying to prove?”
How is any of what you’re doing relevant?
“AHA! See? You did try to prove me wrong, Fearr! Gotcha!”… okay there.
Way to derail the topic.
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Well, how is anything I said not relevant?
You were trying to disprove the fact and I argue that it is a fact. Just because you disagree with it doesn’t mean it is Irrelevant.
If anything, YOU were the one who derail the topic by saying that I derail the topic.
You’re right, right about everything. And I shouldn’t have tried to reasoned with you. It encouraged whatever this is, so my bad for that. I’m out.
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And on a related note to the topic, I understand what OP means. While protoss and zerg also have tech requirements for the upgrades, these tech structures represent a desired path for their gameplay plan. Taking a Hive or a Council allow for other structures/tech for units they plan to use anyways, while for Bio Terran (in coop) it’s not the case. I dont personally feel inclined to one side or the other, but I understand the point.