Do biological units take reduced damage to siege tank area of effect damage?
The “biological” attribute is not a factor in Siege Tank’s splash damage. It’s a percentage value of its main attack damage, so only presence of the “armored” attribute (or lack of it) matters.
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Siege tank in siege mod do 40 +30 armored damage. The direct target and any units in a radius of 0.4687 around epicenter receive full damage, units between 0.4687 to 0.7812 take 50% damage, and all units from 0.7812 to 1.25 take 25% damage. These damage apply to all units, whether friendly or foe.
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Thank you for your specific information. I really appreciate it, however… How much is 0.7812 etc? inches?
Squares. It’s an in-game measurement.
The standard length unit of sc2. Tank in regular mode’s attack range is 7, in siege mode its attack range is 13, it moves 3.15 range per second.
Also, I forget to mention that according to the automatic target system, tank will always choose to attack the closest target by itself after its last target dies. So if enemy melee units already approach your units, your tank will attack them and cause a lot of friendly damage. If you have enough apm to micro them, try to select your tanks and attack most dangerous or armored units manually, such as banelings, stalkers, or immortals, and not waste shots on single zergling or zealot.
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jedi is right the numbers are exactly from the editor and explain why tanks feel sometĂmes weak as well
their main dmg radius is so small they can’t deal full dmg to multiple units except zerglings and marines if i am correct this should have been the real area where tanks should have buffed instat of the extra dmg up to 70 vs armor as base
it also highlights how the liberator AA should be devieded into multiple parts then the base dmg could be increase to be not useless since it has currently 1,5 area flat
No, the Siege Tank’s splash radius has never been a problem.
The problem Siege Tanks used to have was a complete lack of killing power, which the damage change fixed. Siege Tanks don’t need to be better at killing Marines and Zerglings (both of which are easily dealt with by other units in both Bio and mech), they needed to stronger against units like Stalkers, Cyclones, Thors, landed Vikings, Roaches, Ravagers, Ultralisks, Lurkers, Colossus, etc.
If you revert the Tank’s damage for a radius increase, Tanks will disappear from use again.
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it lacks the killing power because its splash radius where it dealed main dmg was so low know it deals in the same ~0.8 radius 20+15 vs armored now
aka 35 the base main dmg from before if they keept 35+15 main dmg while increasing the main splash raidus where it use to deal 100% to ~0.8 as example
you would have tanks dealing 35 +15 dmg in the same area even better tanks while not being able to destroy high hp units like ultras with now 7-8 hits and kept the relation where you have other options like the liberator for example
it would help a lot in the midgame vs smaller groups of units where its mostly used vs like all small to medium size units adepts stalker roach ravanger marauders cyclones hellions for example
this would mean you would have against every low to medium size units 15 dmg more dmg output while not destroying the obvious units to push in like ultras and immortals archons and thors
while terran could still force resiege with libs and zerg has the surround option that the smaller units doesn’t get to much splash in the face
Siege Tanks do not lack any killing power right now. They are completely fine.
Your suggestion is nothing but a nerf to Siege Tanks in small numbers, which would force players to mass a lot more Tanks before they become effective against anything other than the squishiest units. It also makes the friendly-fire from Siege Tanks significantly worse, which makes them a bigger liability in most compositions.
Of course, you already know that. You are suggesting that change because it is a nerf.
Siege Tanks don’t need to be any weaker against high HP units like Ultralisks or Thors. Tanks wouldn’t be very useful at all if they didn’t have the stopping power to deal with those units when you had a critical mass of them.
Siege Tanks are such a large investment in cost and supply that it is very difficult to afford supporting units like Liberators and Thors alongside them.
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yeah they don’t lack firepower now
but i am certain its was the wrong way to buff them while the friendly fire aspect is true
the fact that Siege tanks are attillerie and you shoudn’t get to close anyway to the target
about high hp units there is a part of that thinks if you get 10 +tanks there is no ground unit to break it so most avoid fighting them and just force a siege and back up make you less mobile and force you to play to camp since you can’t engage without siege mode and this leads the other races to have no other option to go into air making them totaly useless explaining the low usesage out of timing attacks and camper styles
and tanks would be even in smaller number useful against medium size targets as roaches hydras or stalkers since you would 35+15 instat of the current 20+15 vs armored if the 50% area and 100% are would have been merged
No, the damage buff was exactly what Siege Tanks needed.
Most of the changes in LOTV work against Siege Tanks:
- The game starts much faster, so there isn’t as much time to safely build up a Tank count before combat.
- Many additional counters to Tanks were added, and several existing threats became stronger or more mobile. Ravagers in particular hard-countered Siege Tanks out of existence until the Tank’s damage was buffed. The problem was that Terran needed at least a 4:3 ratio of Siege Tanks to Ravagers (where Tanks are the far more expensive units) before Tanks could compete against compositions with Ravagers without simply getting hard-countered out of existence. The flat damage increase changed that ratio to 1:1.
- Siege Tanks were already simply too weak against Protoss units. Terran required far too many Tanks before they became effective in the match-up against anything except Stalkers (which is a function of the Tank’s damage, not its splash radius).
The net effect of all of these changes is that Siege Tanks needed to be stronger in small counts in order to be useful in any match-up.
You are very bad at communication. Think through what you are typing, and use sentences instead of rambling junk.
The problem that you are complaining about: Mass Tanks crushing all ground units; was already the case with the 35 +15 damage tank from WOL and HOTS; even against Immortals with hardened shields (which was an absolutely broken ability).
The reason why Siege Tanks always crush other ground units when you have a very large number of them sieged in one place is because Siege Tanks have longer range and splash. A direct consequence of those attributes is that Siege Tanks scale up into large numbers better than other units, and after hitting a certain critical mass they start to kill chunks of the opposing army before those enemy units can even get close. The remaining units that close into range won’t be enough to deal with the mass of Tanks that are still alive and waiting for them.
Colossus and Lurkers do the exact same thing to shorter ranged ground units. It is a function of range and splash that will always happen when long ranged + splash damage units have even mediocre DPS.
Increasing the Siege Tank’s splash radius (even with lower damage) will make that critical mass case much worse, because it both ensures that the Siege Tanks will kill far more units with each volley and renders splitting ineffective–therefore, less units will survive to close into range of the Tanks even if the damage to the main target is lower.
On the other side of the coin, because Siege Tanks are an immobile unit with a minimum range, a long cooldown, and friendly-fire, Siege Tanks have to reach a minimum count before they become effective in combat. If you don’t have enough Tanks, then the opponent will easily get into range and either crush the Tanks, prevent them from shooting altogether, or force friendly-fire (making the Tanks a liability from that point onward). That minimum usually starts at the number of Tanks needed to kill a target unit in one volley, and it becomes some multiple of that based on the number of enemies and their positioning.
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first sry i am not a native speaker
second yeah tanks got counters in form of ravanger in the early game but with the buff i described if you had 4 tanks vs 3 ravanger for example you would deal
if all 4 focus the middle one deal all 3 ravangers 35x4 dmg instat of the with your high praised main dmg buff 40 to the central and 20 to the 2 standing beside
meaning you would have dealed 140 to every ravangerkilling all 3 instat of killing 1 and dmg the other 2 by 80 hitpoints
so that mean if you had just one tank shooting 3 ravangers you had 105 instat of 80 dmg as output just with 35+15 tanks with bigger main dmg radius at 0.8
with 0.8 radius the main 35 dmg would be able to hit 3 archons standing side by side for full dmg 35 instat of 1 with 40 and 2x20
its the same like thor AA vs mutas while magic box wasn’t possible to be hit with 0.5 radius but 0.6 was insanely powerful
You clearly don’t understand the problem.
First of all, units are not always clumped up like you are expecting, especially in small engagements where the exact Tank count is most important. A splash radius buff does not lower minimum number of Siege Tanks or the ratio of Siege Tanks to enemy units that a Terran player needs to be effective. Your Siege Tanks would still be completely ineffective in TvZ and TvP because they are too easily countered, and take too much time and resources to build up into effective amounts.
Your Siege Tanks would still have to outnumber Ravagers by 33% just to trade evenly, which renders Siege Tanks useless in TvZ. They would have no place in either non-mirror unless the opponent decides to leave Terran alone until the player has close to 14 Tanks.
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well my example was to showcase when tanks would become stronger than ravanger compare to the current which is with already this small example fight
with 4 tanks of bigger 100% splash radius with the old dmg (already) you could beat 7 ravanger before they could even shot their biles at 9 range if they clumb up in front of a ramp as example
while currently you need with maximum splash effect 9 shots to deal with the same 7 ravangers while max out dmg out on the central target and dmg the other around by 60 keeping them still 2 shots away from death
you know i could show it you per mod that it would get even in small number more dmg on armies than the current one but i don’t bother with it
since you don’t try to listen i am also well aware of your point that units not always clumped up
but even if they spread out like crazy the difference would be only 5 dmg vs non-armored ravanger compared to before
what would be a 3 hit on ravanger when it wouldn’t have zerg liveregen making it vs a single ravanger neither really better or weaker in this fights
while the increased splash would be against clumped enemies significant better
the only clumbing unit that would be stay a bit better vs extremly low numbers of tanks vs my splashed increased version would be the roach until you get 3 tanks since the main dmg would deal 20 dmg more splitted roaches would still be 3 shot from both while the high dmg tank would have actually massiv overkill but would be more effectiv with marines until the 3 tanks are avaible vs them
Tank damage buff was the second worst change in all of lotv. First was 5 mineral interceptors. Tankivacs could’ve been fixed by adding a delay when dropping tanks that way terrans could still take trades with bio tank in the mid game without losing every tank whenever a fight goes bad. And zergs could still kill terrans when they take horrible trades because tanks wouldnt be able to solo entire ground armies.
That kind of case is NEVER going to happen in a real game:
- The only ramp narrow enough for Tanks to get that kind of hit is the ramp into the main; so the Terran player would have to be stuck on one-base. The natural chokepoint is always much wider.
- The Terran player is also not going to get 4 Tanks out one on base before a Roach-Ravager attack hits, unless that attack is extremely delayed.
- Even in the case where a Zerg player does wait long enough for Terran to get up 4 Siege Tanks, the Zerg player is going to have a much larger army than 4 of the old Tanks can deal with.
- In order for the Tanks to “force” the Ravagers up the ramp, the Siege Tanks would have to be so far back that they can barely shoot units at the bottom of the ramp. At that distance, the Ravagers can just break the wall with Biles or auto-attacks from outside of the range of the Siege Tanks.
Ravagers are not the only unit that Siege Tanks were struggling with though. In general, LOTV moves much faster and Siege Tanks needed to be stronger in lower counts just to compete with the same armies that it was fighting in WOL and HOTS.
No, the introduction of the medivac pickup was the worst change in all of LOTV, and the Tank’s damage increase was one of the better changes made in LOTV.
Early Siege Tanks were too weak to be used as anything more than a gimmick unit. They were too weak to fill their zone control/defensive role; and the Medivac pickup completely ruined the design of the unit. Early LOTV Tanks were more like 250/225, 5-supply Ravagers than Siege Tanks; and the game wouldn’t have been much different at that point if Siege Tanks were removed from the game entirely.
That is, unless the opponent was stupid enough to leave you alone for 20 minutes, never split the army or take alternate routes from the one chokepoint your Tanks happened to be close to, and never micro Ravagers, Warp Prisms, air units (Vipers, Brood Lords, etc), or Infestors correctly. Then you could probably build up a Tank count that the opponent’s ground army couldn’t approach.
No, even the weakest tank that has ever existed in StarCraft II can obliterate ground armies at some point after getting into the double-digits. It is an unavoidable side effect of combining longer range than the enemy and splash damage. A 20 damage Siege Tank would still dominate ground wars in StarCraft II if you had more than 20 of them.
It is better to have a Tank that is useful when you have 2-6 of them than a Tank that is only useful once you’ve built up that ridiculous mass though.