Specifically in the early to mid game. I’ve read Team Liquid’s guide, I know he’s slow to ramp up, but it’s still rough. On most maps* I feel like I’m racing to contribute while my ally is kicking butt and taking names. Eventually, I’ve got my herc tank drop, science vessels, etc.,…and my ally has a 150 supply deathball. Siege tanks are good, but they aren’t THAT good.
Any experienced Swann players have suggestions? I like Swann, but I want to be doing more. Even at the end, Swann’s army is fragile. Is this just the way he is? More of a tactical, surgical play style?
Try looking at the replays in the teamliquid guide.
Not the fastest to get worthwhile units out, but Swann partially compensates for that with a fast expand. Are you going drill or vespene drone mastery?
Taking gas aggressively makes a big difference in how fast you fill out your Herc.
If you check the replay you will see that Monk put workers to gas as fast as he can and initially end up floating a lot of gas. You don’t have to do it quite that fast if you want to spend a bit of minerals on static defense, the most important thing is just building the refineries and setting your vespene harvester on them immediately.
I wouldn’t say he’s fragile at all, not when you have sci vessels healing, and with defensive matrix. one herc filled with tanks also does an insane amount of damage for its supply. That’s usually what I get first, just start pumping out those tanks immediately after getting your expo. And if they are getting damaged, use your Herc to save them.
Then after having 8 tanks I shift into building a bunch of Goliath and getting their upgrades as well as sci vessels.
Don’t get your Armory until you’ve already filled out the Herc.
I personally almost never play Tank/Herc, unless I’m on Miner Evac.
I usually go with Hellbats, Goliaths, Cyclones, and Science Vessels, with some numbers adjusting based on composition. (Less Hellbats for an air comp, more Hellbats for swarm/Bane compositions.)
Alternatively, Mass Wraith works.
Mid-game I’ll usually have a decent force, but you’re more of a late game force than anything else. A lot of your early game comes down to usage of Drill and Combat Drop.
No, not full saturation, just have all gasses before starting tank production, and build scv with the leftover minerals.
But you don’t need to rush tank production, don’t worry about having units for the first wave, use your calldown (and static defense on Rifts to korhal) for that, floating your factory a bit forward to delay the wave until calldown is ready.
Just make sure you have your Herc and at least 2 tanks, preferably 4 for the second wave.
don’t bother with a split, just go full drones, it will give you a faster ramp-up, since you can more easily afford harvester on both your own refineries and your ally’s.
btw. the replays are on an older patch, on the current one Swann’s scv are buffed so they build faster, so you should perhaps use 2 scv to build the initial depot to avoid slowing down scv production.
I’m weird and use Wraith these days, with proper micro and the upgrade even a small amount of Wraith can make a big impact early game. But they take a lot of skill to use well.
More generally, rush your expo. If rocks I build CC at the rocks, then build two Blaster Billies to destroy them. The TL guide recommends what Porphyra mentions below, which is probably the better route. Remember to salvage the turrets after.
Since Armories don’t cost gas anymore, you can quickly get the first Drill upgrade.
After those then start up unit production of your choice. It’s all quick enough that you can use the Combat Drones to deal with the first wave and objective, and have an army out shortly thereafter.
Yes, except for some mutations, always rush your expo, but get 2 turrets for rocks before CC and like the guide, once main rock is cleared sell one of them and fast-build CC with 8 workers, it’s more efficient in that order.
Make sure to send workers from main just before main rock is cleared to avoid delays.
If you already have problems keeping your ground army alive, I wouldn’t recommend Wraiths they are quite fragile, but fun to try from time to time.
If you struggle to use defensive matrix fast enough, after the first Goliaths just start supplementing with Thors, they are a bit slow and clumsy, but has a much bigger margin for error regarding the usage of defensive matrix.
For the first attack wave, a single Flaming Betty at the entrance with an SCV or two to repair will be enough as long as it isn’t Vikings. A safer route is a Flaming Betty and a Blaster Billy with an SCV or two.
Salvage them afterwards.
Sometimes you can time the first attack with your first Combat Drop, and continue to the objective with them after. But that takes pretty good timing and only works on some maps so the above is definitely the better choice until you’ve got solid map knowledge.
Alternatively, you can also coordinate with your ally for that, depending on your partner’s CO there’s no need to worry about it. Karax and Dehaka are notable for it; Kerri, Tychus, and Zeratul can handle it on any map but Rifts to Korhal.
Knowing how much to dedicate to defence at the start will give a big impact in the early and mid game.
On all maps except Rifts to Korhal, your factory should be able to slow them down enough without it being destroyed until the combat drop is ready, but also building a single flamer behind it isn’t the end of the world.
btw. I don’t know if you use control groups, but having your Herc on its own grouping will make it a lot easier to micro.
You have gotten a bunch of suggestions, now try them out , and if you want more help, upload a replay, makes it a lot easier to point out where you can improve things.
Adjust things as works for you, don’t try to conform to a strict playstyle. That’s the best part of Coop.
But yeah! Give it all a shot. Swann’s tough to learn how to use for higher difficulties, but he’s a ton of fun once you get him worked out.
Set the Herc and it’s (up to) 8 tanks on the same control group, that way you can quickly select them all and right click on the Herc to load the tanks.
Thanks everyone! I have been using the TL build order, and it’s definitely helped. I think I’m getting tripped up on unit production - starting to build tanks too soon and attacking with them, and then 10 minutes in I realize I only have 14/21 SCVs.
I also have been incorporating wraiths, basically as a replacement for goliaths. They aren’t as flexible since their ground attack kinda sucks, but between cloaking, speed, and flight, I have an easier time using them as the anti-air support unit.
Swann is slow to ramp up. There’s no shame in being behind the curve there.
For the beginning part, I put up gas drones, make an Armory ASAP (they no longer cost gas now), and start upgrading the laser drill (I have a 15/15 split between that and gas drones). Get your economy going. Use towers for def., few units as needed, with combat drop and laser drill in support.
Midgame, I’m cranking out Goliaths and Tanks, with their (ability) upgrades done, and lv upgrades already started. Later on, I get Sci. Vess.
Armory upgrades still cost gas, which I why I would rec getting the tanks first. Their +40 damage upgrade is also a lot more impactful than getting +1 a bit faster.
You can go for a slower more turtling style with more static defence and laser drill mastery, but it’s not really the most effective even if it feels safer, and it means you can contribute less out on the map, and that’s exactly what the OP asked for advice about:
How to improve, and be more active.
is something bad. While its perfectly OK if you provide enough support to your ally to safely complete the mission.
And if you wanna feel a bit more involved into actual “kicking butt” stop trying to be fancy with Herc/Tank*, open Hellbats, then add Thors (against ground comps) or Goliafs (against ground comps) and A-move your way to victory (Science Vessels included, of course). And get Laser Drill upgrades asap.
The hell? Have you ever tried building Hellbats or using Defensive Matrixes of Science Vessels?
Would be useful to see a replay of when things did not work out for you, than we can suggest what went wrong and why.
As for making units too soon - it is not a thing. I make units as soon as factory and add-on are ready. Which two units I make depends on a lot of things, like my masteries, the map, ally, etc. You will get a fill for it after a thousand games.
Herc with tanks is also a good strategy, you don’t need to max out on the army every single game. You are doing about 1000 damage a shot. With some pickup micro you can take care of objectives without losing any of your or ally army. For example on rifts to korhal you can teleport behind 2nd set of shards and kill them without clearing defenses.
Everything you mentioned is a viable strategy. To suggest something specific we would need a specific scenario/replay. What are your masteries, who is ally, what map, what enemy
CC first unless u plan going turrets. Sure you supply blocked for a bit but double scv production makes up for it. In the end u end up even but with a lot more gas
Firstly, great job reading guides! The info there is good, but some it quite out of date. For example, wraith’s now have excellent dps when used properly.
I really like Swann, but I find him harder to steamroll with than about half of the other commanders. I probably need more APM. Here’s another guide to help: https://starcraft2coop.com/commanders/swann
Swann’s army can do a massive amount of damage, but yes it can be fragile, somewhat like Raynor bio, vs some comps. For help with that be sure to micro the science vessel shield and time your laser drill calldowns.
My favourite way is to use mastery for the laser drill wih tank + some turrets early. For that to work you need to rush the drill upgrades, but you’ll have a calldown ready for most waves. If you push to the spawns you can then camp with turrets and jump your herctank over if needed.
Edit: As some have mentioned, how about a replay where you struggled so you can get personal advice. Or even your best replay.
If your ally is wrecking while you’re just getting going, that tells me you’re playing on a too easy difficulty. Swann shines when there’s actually a reason to get good value out of your units.
, and if you want more help, upload a replay, makes it a lot easier to point out where you can improve things.