I am on the verge of hitting Mastery 90 and jumped up the difficulty to accommodate it, but I have been having a difficult time. My biggest problem is that I am a slow player. The jump between Normal and Hard varies between missions and which selection of Amon’s forces we end up against. Sometimes I barely notice a difference between Normal and Hard. Other times I feel like I’ve had someone run up to me and kick me square in the balls.
Some missions that require a FAST start I straight up cannot do on Hard. Part And Parcel is joyless most of the time due to those ridiculous friggin trains, but on Hard I can barely get a force together before we run out of time.
(I personally feel that timer needs to be reviewed and patched) Temple Of The Past used to be the mission I was guaranteed to always lose, but I’ve at least gotten a little better at it…though not by much.
Can someone help me? I posted a while back about wanting to do Hard to get some of the Achievements done to unlock some of the cool portraits like Zagara’s and Swann’s.
(both of which I assume are still bugged as Blizzard are worthless unless it comes to a payment problem)
I’ve made zero progress with that and the spate of losses I’ve been hit with on Hard has really knocked me back. Can I improve? How do I get better?
Well, first, pick a commander to main. Or three, if you want one of each race. Play them constantly and often so you can learn their ins and outs. Eventually you’ll naturally get used to their play style and understand how to do various things.
Second, there’s stuff on YouTube/other sites that can act as guides of sorts, or at least guidelines. Shows good build(s), what things are good, what are bad, how to execute certain things… Etc.
Third. Practice. That’s all it takes, is just practice. Hotkeys are king.
I started with Alarak as my main (a rough Commander to start on, but he’s bae.) I can play each Commander with ease on Brutal, but my mains are Alarak, Abathur (would be Stetmann if Stetlagg wasn’t a thing), and Han & Horner. I know them inside and out.
That might be part of the problem. I go back and forth between Commanders quite a bit. I got some of the easiest ones done, like Nova, Fenix and Tychus but that Tychus one was a b!tch to pull off. I’ll try to whittle it down as well as pick someone that isn’t one of those 3 so I can try and get their Achievements done too.
(screw Artanis’ Hard ones)
Any pointers where specifically?
Some people cannot stand the fact that you are still trying to get a hold of things even when at Mastery 89. They just expect you to win the match for them and get sh!tty when I am struggling to even have a half-decent flow in-game.
I liked Alarak’s forces more than I thought I would myself. Abathur is one I struggle to get going with. Really slow starting up with him for some reason. As much as I was looking forward to seeing Stetmann…I was kinda disappointed by him. And yes, very buggy when he’s going. I’m rubbish with H&H. XD
Yeah, apart from practice, the big thing I’d point out is to make sure to use hotkeys and control groups. Coop is very routine ultimately, so with enough practice you’ll be able to anticipate what will come without much conscious effort.
Early game is the most demanding part of the game really, after you have 100+ supply it takes some big mistakes to lose.
Try to dominate exactly that, the faster you get your expo the better, while at the same time getting your build order.
To that you should use hotkeys, very awkward to get used to it, but so worth it in the long run, can’t really explain much, watch the hotkey guide on yt and practice, practice, weird out but still practice, helps to react to things so much faster.
Then the build order, in a nutshell, you build things without stopping to make workers until you saturated the main and expo, sounds simple but like you said, some maps requires units early, I’d say, use the calldowns and heroes for that and do your best to get your expo, I believe only Miner’s Evac you should do the first objective first then go expo, until you get the hang of it.
Lastly, use the money, if you have over 800+ of minerals, either make static to defend attack waves or make units, never let yourself bank the resources unless you’re maxed on supply, even then, try to spend it.
All of this looks pretty basic but having a smooth execution takes time, Sprite is right to say you should main a few commanders before going to others.
Definitely focus on getting a good build order down; this is huge for most commanders because there’s no shortcuts up the tech tree, a slow start can snowball into a slow midgame and you can spend an entire match playing catch-up. Practice is a big part of it, but it’s equally important to know exactly what you’re aiming for in the early game: what units you’re trying to make and how many, when you’re teching or macroing up, etc.
For example, as Zagara, getting the Baneling Nest ready ASAP is important because of the free unit spawns, so I’ll go 14/14 on drones, start my first Overlord, then morph both Extractors while it’s building to free up supply so I can queue up 2 more drones. Once the Overlord’s done, I’ll make more drones as long as there’s available larva, then start the Spawning Pool as soon as I have 200 minerals saved up. While it’s building, I’ll have enough drones made to fully saturate both minerals and gas, and by the time the Pool is done, I’ll have about enough gas for the Baneling Nest. This plus the hero unit gives me enough “army” that I can spend all my income on teching up and expanding for several minutes.
In general, you want to focus on:
-not having too many workers queued up as Terran and Protoss; hotkey your Command Center/Nexus (I use 0) and check it frequently so that it’s always building just one. You need to make full use of your resources in those opening minutes, and having 3 workers queued means you have 100 minerals sitting there doing nothing; it’s much better to only have 1 worker queued and a Depot/Pylon building at the same time.
-same deal with your army production, but for different reasons; make too many units early on, and you don’t have enough to expand or tech up to important upgrades. For commanders with a hero unit, try to stay on just that hero until at least the 7-8 minute mark (and that means practicing your hero micro), for those without, try to limit yourself to 10-16 units tops and keep them alive as much as possible. For commanders who generate “free” units (like the above-mentioned Zagara), focus on getting those ready fast.
-try to unlock your “tier 2” tech options as soon as possible; Lair for Zerg, Cybernetics Core for Protoss, Armory for Terran, for example (this varies between commanders). Even if you won’t actually be using those higher tech buildings/upgrades for a few minutes, having the option to make them is very important.
-as part of practicing your build orders, pay attention to when the first attack wave spawns or when the first objective you need to move out for activates, and set that as your benchmark, so that you know “if the first attack wave hits at 4 minutes, I need to have X, Y and Z ready by that time”, for example. If it’s not ready by that time, then you can start looking for places in your build order where you’re waiting too much or are supply blocked or have resources that you’re not using. This timing varies for each map, so pick one map to practice at first, get your build order and timing down, and that will give you a good basis for learning the rest of the maps.
Map knowledge is definitely important. If you know when and where attack waves come from, it helps a lot.
Bonus objectives only give around 2000 XP, and usually aren’t worth it. Don’t let your army die because of bonus objectives. The bonus ship on Scythe of Amon is particularly annoying and I still ignore it because it’s so slow and the pickup spots are so heavily guarded.
Rifts of Korhal has an earlier attack wave than other maps. So you’ll have to adjust your build order to get some defense up asap. For early hero commanders like Tychus/Dehaka this isn’t a problem, but for commanders like Raynor, I try to get a Barracks + Bunker up asap.
Part and Parcel start is actually pretty easy if you just get the lightly defended crates on the left first before getting your expansion. I know the pros usually try to fast expand, but if you’re a slower player go for the easy crates first to buy more time.
Don’t prioritize bonus if you struggle to do it, or it will cost you the game if you do it. It’s about 10% of your total exp, which really isn’t worth throwing the game over.
Those aren’t bugged, no. It’s likely that you aren’t doing them correctly (Zagara’s roach drop achievement is actually killing with the circles that the drop pods land in, not the roach themselves).
Reddit has a compilation thread about how to do achievements up to Stetmann. (I don’t quite agree with how they suggest to do Alarak’s A Good Day To Die though)
Aside from what Sprite said about choosing your main (or 3):
Your knowledge on enemy composition helps a lot. You can tell enemy forces via the icon on the bottom right of your screen so you know what’s coming and how to handle them, mostly by building the right counter units.
Build detector, even if you don’t know if there’s a stealth mob. It’s usually too late by the time you get the warning.
Send your first units to destroy expansion rocks. If it’s contested, invite your teammate, so you can expand quickly. This is particularly important for commanders like Karax.
See #3, always communicate with teammates so you know each others’ strategy. You might even be able to skip a unit/tech or two if you fill each other’s gap.
In regards to Stetmann… I just recently got him and not an expert myself, but I really enjoy his ability to support his teammate. His Zergling are expendable meat shield that could enter the battle first so your teammate’s would survive. Always open with your Gary with Overcharge. Gary Zone, and AoE.
If you are strugling with early objectives than maybe you are using a subpar build order. Looking for build orders on YT and other Coop guides might help.
Read starcraft2coop website and the (kinda outdated) team liquid sc2 coop guides.
Check out on youtube what other (highly viewed) players are doing and how are they playing the commanders you like in brutal.
Base build orders and early expansion are literally 99% of winning coop.
Bonus objectives are utterly useless, if you dont like them or dont care about that tiny bonus exp just ignore them.
If you feel slow and unprepared use commanders with powerful heroes like Kerrigen, Zagara, Tychus and similar - they can keep you safe and clear out objectives for the first 2/3 of a game.
Honestly, you should try beating the campaigns on harder difficulties first. If you can beat the campaign on Hard you can beat Co Op on hard, if you can beat it on Brutal you can beat co op on Brutal.
If you aren’t getting any better playing Co Op, try a different method. Try practicing 1v1 vs the AI in a normal game perhaps? I used to do that all the time when I was learning Starcraft and it helps a LOT. I even do it when I come back to versus after a break just to get my mechanics warmed back up.
If your problem is just basic mechanics, the only way to get better is to push yourself, and to practice. Use your hotkeys better, swap them around even to your liking. Practice using your mouse faster, try spamming your APM just to see how high you can get it.
Your problem is mechanics, and TRUST me when I say that Co Op doesn’t do much to improve people’s mechanics, too many of the CO’s especially some of the newer ones (aside from Mengsk) do a ton to hold players’ hands so their mechanics aren’t as important. Heroes do this especially!
If you want to improve your mechanics, practice some other methods. And just as an end note. Go practice with the game speed turned on to Fastest. You’re ALWAYS going to play slow, playing at the game’s slower speeds. It’s infuriating to me that Blizz even has that set as a default setting for people. If you get used to playing on Fastest when you go back to playing on Hard you’ll find the game moving in slow motion. You’ll get faster just by experiencing the fastest speed and playing games on it, even if you’re losing.
Same here x3.5 - for me it’s between Hard & Brutal, and depends on the map.
Part & Parcel is joyless period. The announcer doesn’t help. And having the announcer panic when you still have 3 minutes left on a clock that started at 5 minutes makes that even more annoying. I don’t think I’ve done the first bonus on Brutal ever. It’s also a great way to lose your entire starting army because of how many enemy bases it will go through if you can’t kill it quickly.
Doubly so for slow starters like Vorazun. Still my fav to play but I give up on competing with my ally for kills or map clearing - by the time my army is big enough to clear a full base, it’s nearly late game and my ally has probably done the rest already.
This is particularly hard when I play with Vorazun, my previous main. Each map needs its own tips. You’ll notice that when the “pros” play Co-op missions, they actually have an easier game than you would and this is mostly because of map clearing, not enemy killing. On Temple, you and your ally should spend the entire early game clearing out the first passage between your two mains. Towards the end of that, the first Void Thrasher spawns and you both are nearby for a quick kill. After that, you should each have enough army to clear the remaining two separately, and this is around the time you first get the simultaneous VTs and need to split your forces anyway. This spawns fewer attack waves and hence makes the game easier. If I play on Hard and don’t clear at least 2 out of 3 passages, I’m guaranteed to lose.
And a more general tip: Keep production up, even while attacking. Unless you’re resource blocked or waiting on cooldowns, you should always be producing units or researching upgrades. Use hotkeys, as mentioned by others. Learn to box select your army and move them together in short steps instead of pressing ‘all army’ and A-clicking somewhere far away. All it does is put your units in queue that the enemy will find very easy to wipe out. Better to select the entire group and all-attack right on top of them. Or bait the enemy with a few units, pull them back to your main force which can wipe them out. It’s a bit slower than just rushing in but very few CO’s can do a pure “rush in with everything” in the early game and still survive. Eg. Zagara. Most 100/200 armies will survive but you will suffer heavy loses, so save that for the end or not at all.
Very good advice. Doubly so for Brutations.
Start your game with “I’m still new to this CO”. They’ll either drop their expectations or quit.
Or like most of the random queue I’ve played Scythe of Amon with, who go for the near-shard before the expo shard, all coz they’re trying to get the bonus - but since I’m relying on second base economy, when the transport starts, I don’t have the units needed to clear the near-shard plus the small base at the northern stop.
Another good reason to let go of the “25% Random Mission” bonus. Get to know attack wave locations and timings for a specific mission. That way, a small/normal sized army at exactly the right place at the right time can do severe damage. A large far-away army has the same DPS as a supply depot*.
* without Alarak.
I agree with the spirit of what you’re saying. However, I find the Campaign much harder than Co-op at the same level. Mostly because in Co-op, you’ve got an ally and some “super powers”. The fun (but bad) part of Campaign is that you can have terrible play style and still power your way through. I did, and still do. Esp on missions that have no explicit or implicit timer. It may not get you the achievements but you can still complete it along with the bonus objectives.
Ha! This is a real challenge when I level up a new CO on Normal. It really feels like slo mo. (But slo mo is a great place to practice real micro, for those like me who didn’t bother with it ever; and then re-apply at higher speeds.)
Just play one you find to be fun and the simpliest for you to play with. Don’t worry about achievement grinding, that can come after you improve. I wound up playing the unorthodox for a while (Mass Adept + Conservator support Fenix) just to derust and get used to things. Tychus is generally the easiest to play with, as he has a low skill ceiling and low skill floor. Limited army, simple builds… All you really need to do is understand the roles of each outlaw, and when to select a certain one.
Personally, my Tychus core is Tychus/Rattlesnake/Nux/Sirius. Pretty much every game I get those four, with Nux and Sirius swapping places, depending upon if I’m playing against Sky or Swarm compositions. (Sirius for Sky, Nux for swarmy/bio ball.) My 5th swaps between Nikara for her burst buff, Vega for mind controlling big units, Sam for single target DPS/Lock down, or Cannonball for a frontline tank.
It’s all about having your economy being up and running saturated ASAP while at the same time having enough force to repel first wave and do first objective. This of course also depends on who your ally is. For example being paired with a tychus or karax u don’t have to worry first wave .
After that it’s about picking the right unit composition to counter the AI composition properly. Control groups and hot keys is just practice. Also learn to use calldowns/specials properly. If you know a hybrid wave is coming save a special for that for example
I really appreciate all the support and advice, gang. Was not expecting so much. Sounds straightforward…so it probably won’t be. XD
I’ve been looking at build order videos as I feel like seeing it in action is better rather than reading it and not really knowing if I understand what is said, and one in particular caught my eye. I say caught my eye, but it almost gave me an epileptic seizure… I’m sure it is just how he plays normally, but are HunterSC2’s Co-Op Build Order videos a good or bad example…?
Know some of the basics…
—what your panic buttons are
Some COs have that via Top Panels/Top Bars, or spells from heroes/specific units. However, you’d generally want to avoid using these liberally, as they’re typically on high cd (cooldown) that you can’t always count on them. They can get you out of a jam every now and then, but you’ll want more reliable ways to deal with threats
—How to get detection at home
Most COs can just make an AA tower
—How to get mobile detection
Try to have detection prepped so that when you do need it, it’s there, or available within a minute. As opposed to having to spend another 5+ minutes teching up, building, etc.
—How to deal with cloaked and burrowed units without detection
Some COs have AoE spells (e.g. storm), or abilities like Karax’ Orbital Strike
—Use the enemy unit composition feature
Hover your mouse cursor over the icon at the bottom right of the map. That tells you what the comp will be ramping towards. For example, if you see Protoss with Scouts and Carriers, you’ll want strong AA. Don’t neglect ground though, as starting off, they’ll send units like Zealots. And later on, they may still be there to accompany air
—Know how to get AA (anti-air)
—Know how to get AoE (area of effect)
—How to get good dps
—stick with a few COs
That way, you can really go in-depth with them. Me, my mains are Swann, Karax, and Stukov
—watch others play them
Via YouTube, download replays, or in the course of playing, you get allies who play them. After such games, you can watch the replay to get more details you wouldn’t be able to while being in the thick of a game.
—Use sites for knowledge and tips…
https:// www.starcraft2coop. com/
https:// starcraft.fandom. com/wiki/StarCraft_II
Except the same thing is true in Co Op, except in campaign you don’t have an ally to bail you out if things get tough.
It’s a better place to learn mechanics. I promise that anyone that has the mechanics to beat the Campaigns on Brutal, will have no problem with their mechanics on Brutal in Co Op. You simply can’t beat certain missions in Campaign without playing at least a little fast.
OP said that he can’t get seem to get better just playing Co Op. Why not try campaign for a bit then?
In the end, Starcraft mechanics is just a basic part of the game. They all translate to other parts. So the more you play and the more you challenge yourself the faster and more accurately you’ll play.
If you don’t mind CtG goofing up quite a bit, or doing meme builds (See: Energizer/Sentinel only on Rifts to Korhal.) then CtG is easier to watch. Hunter is a higher skill player who is used to high APM gameplay.