Okay, this is my first time actually posting on here and I figured I would bring up something that has been bothering me about Zerg. And yes, I am going to be talking about balance, so before any of you go clicking on my profile to determine whether or not my opinion is valid ill tell you straight up lol. I’m a Zerg main but I’m not good at all, an that’s mainly due to the fact that I don’t play much. I do however watch many games and tournaments, so I understand the ins and outs of the game.
But back to the main topic. Even when zerg was a huge problem due to IT and broodlords before the nerfs, something always bothered me with exactly how zerg was winning. Everyone was calling them so overpowered and unbeatable and broken…but I felt like I was just seeing a bunch of weaknesses. Now I may be biased here, but it felt like almost every single engagement that zerg took at any time past the mid game, had to be with spell caster support. I don’t think any race that is dependent on spellcatsers to do anything is strong, it literally puts a time limit on the game. And when they brought the nerf hammer down, I literally called what was going to happen next. I said that zerg players are going to jump from one spell caster to another. That “other” being the Viper. I think that zerg isn’t using spellcasters as a “crutch”, I think they use them so much, at least in the pro scene, because they’re almost dependent on them. Now so more than ever with Terran mech running rampat lol. If you look at Hydra/Lurker/Viper for example, it has quickly become pro Zergs go to/only build to deal with Terran mech. People are calling the build OP/Broken etc. And are calling for vipers to be nerfed into the ground. But my question is, how else would zerg deal with that comp if vipers were any less potent than they are? Vipers (at least from my point of view) are literally the only thing keeping that build viable. And regardless of what so many people (even GM players) say, that comp is NOT easy to control at all. Which is partially the reason why only a handful of zerg players can use it properly. A clear example of this is what happened when PiG vs. Scarlett. He lost because he couldn’t micro his vipers properly while controlling the rest of his army and they kept getting feedbacked.
But now let me get into my main issue. Blizzard has made it so that late game zerg is based on the micro of their spellcasters instead of the control of the army as a whole. Vipers and infestors are VERY rewarding in the hands of the elite, and I would like to see them nerfed, but zerg looks so fragile without them. Blizzard knows this as well, I think that’s the reason why they waited so long to do something about broodlord/infestor/corruptor. They knew taking away IT is what everyone wanted, but they tried to avoid it SO HARD it was almost laughable. And while everyone was screaming at blizz to remove the damn spell, I was laughing because I knew why they were so hesitant. It was because they knew that zerg didn’t have many AA capabilities. And before all of you start screaming at me about corruptors, 1. You have to mass them to handle even a handful of carriers or battle cruisers 2. Even if you have critical mass they still need spell caster support.
All in all, I agree that zerg definitely needs its casters nerfed, but I don’t think they need to be nerfed with no compensation like so many people are suggesting. I don’t get why people act like a lot of the zergs units aren’t just bad lol. Ultras and mutas literally don’t even have a place outside ZvZ anymore. At this point I rather them just give zerg another AA unit like devourer( so they could do a soft nerf to corrupter). I would like Zerg to actually fight like a swarm again and not have to wait for their casters to get anything done or just deathball 100% of the time. I feel like if zerg had stronger units in other areas, that they could actually nerf the casters to a reasonable position so they wont be so gamebreaking. Again, I’m not the most knowledgeable about these things, which is why I’m coming here to see if you all can clear things up for me. Im confused as to how I see it this way but sooo many people who are 10x better than me are still calling for a nerf to the whole race lol. I’ve literally seen GM level players suggest that banes do damage to friendly units on death XD. I figured I must be missing something.
Of course it has to be with a spell caster, also at the proper time, at the proper location (preferably on creep) and not from one side.
The simple reason is that zerg units are squishy and of the are not outnumbering the opponent (mainly late but with the current design it may vary) there is no way to win a fight and you will instant lose.
The reason you see mech rampant is due to the inability to play bio. The map pool favors Zerg, and as the maps get bigger, and bigger you’ll see more and more turtle style play, because there isn’t a way to eco damage a Zerg player in the current map-making meta.
You must also consider how if the other races have the tools to combat those spellcaster though.
As protoss for example when you manage to feedback the majority of vipers it is really frustrating to have them return in less than a min with full energy again while my spellcasters slowly recharge energy.
you need to understand that some of the people you’re talking to or reading from are tilted at zerg being successful at the highest level for so long, and others may be comfy in the meta and don’t want to see a quick change
I can agree to this … remove lurkers, SH and abduct . An give zerg late game upgrades to base units like roach … someting like on hive tech roach cost less supply … Ling in hive tech cost only 20 minerals …
Multiple Zerg have used this against mech, serral and I think 2 others are the only ones who have almost perfected it. Vipers hard counter the thors and siege tanks so hard lol. Lowko actually has that game on his channel, Serral Vs. Innovation.
i mean we COULD use this statement to say protoss is heavily underpowered since you rely on spellcasters from early on. you need forcefields to defend your base and hinder tons of either roaches or zerglings to crush your base or you need them to not get surrounded by zerglings when you try to push out or you need them to zone out the roaches so your immortals dont get sniped. Once zerg gets on top of your units you are dead. And in midgame you always need ht or disrupter to fight roach/ravager/hydra armies while still forcefielding the enemy army or you are getting straight up killed. (not a balance whine just trying to make clear that protoss relies heavily on spellcasters vs zerg and you got tons of other spellcasters or spells to use effectively to get a good run vs zerg. for example oracles or adepts. protoss feels so gimmicky )
i mean we could try to nerf spellcasters of p and z and buff overall core units so spellcasters get less important but its a really hard task to do.
but for the rest of it i try to not comment because i definetly would get salty
so pig lost and scarlett was playing protoss is that correct? in no world you would expect pig to win over scarlett since her protoss is top NA (she reached #1 NA i think?) and definetly mid/top pro worthy, she even got some maps off some korean pros in idk gsl(?) with her protoss because she cant stand zvz. but yeah idk the match would be worth a watch i guess.
i guess we lack good pro matches for the current balance patch but if you look at hsc reynor vs zest i think zerg lategame is still in a good stance vs protoss… reynor was toying around with zests units and zest is not a nobody. i wouldnt say its still op but its not underpowered either i guess. but i surely need to educate myself on current top pro lategame matches.
I should’ve been more specific lol, I meant a race based around biological monsters shouldn’t be like that. It makes perfect sense that a high tech race like toss has all that going on for them. And I don’t consider Disruptors as a spellcaster, simply because it has that one function and is not energy based. That’s like saying everything with an ability is a spell caster lol which they’re not. Oracles and sentries are good, and toss has many ways to used them efficiently. I don’t really think toss needs much of a nerf to their casters or a buff to a lot of their other units except maybe the colossus.
I say that because unlike zerg, they use their casters are used the way they should be used. You are never going to see toss mass HT, or Oracles and Sentry lol. The protoss build is based around the other units, sentry usually paired with stalkers, HT paired with everything, Oracles good for vision and harrass.
I never expected him to beat her lol, I was using that as an example to show what happens when you cant properly control an army comp that complex. Lurker/Hydra/Viper is not as easy as everyone is making it out to be.
I haven’t even seen this game, But I bet he probably went infestor/corruptor/brood? is that right? If that the case, Ill try to find it, but I bet when I do, ill just see zerg taking engagments they wouldn’t have won without infestors.
ah so you mean it doesnt fit zerg to be dependent on spellcaster because lore? i mean yes on the lower tech field it would actually be weird thats right but i dont see any problem in having spellcasters with higher tier units which evolved to have very powerful abilities. like a dragon for example. in many games its an ability to spit fire and that as a “monster”.
but my points still stand: you shouldnt compare pro player vs non pro player. i doubt heavily that he lost because he “only” couldnt handle that composition.
In the 20 year anniversary stream TLO and pig played against each other as a showmatch. TLO is not good as scarlett but i guess her protoss is like his zerg actually. anyway in the first match between tlo actually handicapped himself with a 10% health nerf and won convincingly. in the second match he got a 30% hp nerf and barely lost. (https ://youtu.be/vNa00uKgXF8?t=4168) The difference between tlo/scarlett and pig is just too huge to say anything about balance.
And my other point protoss relying heavily on spellcasters was meant as justifying needing to use spellcasters. zerg only relies on spellcasters in lategame and got the best 2 spellcasters of the game. even after the nerf both spellcaster are better than any spellcaster actually since they both are very strong vs big units (abduct/yoink and neural) and vs many ground units (cloud and fungal) and air units (bomb and fungal). and nor are lurker/hydra/viper too easy to control neither too hard to control since protoss needs to do similiar things from the beginning on (and if you really say its too hard to control then buff protoss too so protoss dont have a hard time to control). in lategame zerg can actually afford to choose his fights since he is the one to be attacked. its ok to give up 1 or 2 bases since you got a bank anyway. in lategame its very important to wait for a good fight and kill your opponents army. unlike zerg, protoss and terran cant remake a maxed high tier army in less than a minute, so you will always have that on your side and the game ends as soon as you killed the high tier army.
he almost purely went corrupter viper (https ://youtu.be/QZgVO1YHIaY?t=769).
and that was on the testing balance patch so the balance patch wasnt even really out yet but he still easily beats protoss lategame without needing to practise much with the new playstyle. and yoinking focusfire slow high tier units seems to be not too hard to do. I wouldnt say this match is the proof of zerg still dominating protoss lategame but you can at least say zerg is not weak in lategame.
thats why i cringed a bit on that statement. they said that IT should be nerfed because it was obvious that its very easy to pull of (you can fungle them then use neural and then cast out a ton of IT which creates a deathtrap that 100% kill the enemy high tier units while you just mass t2 units) and you got other alternatives. It was known that zerg doesnt just have one method of getting rid of high tech units but it was the far easiest and most relyable so you only saw mass infestor.
My last argument and thats a big flagship of an argument: Zerg has achieved to be more hated than protoss. And the protoss hating culture was real for the last at least 8 years. Watch that funny clip about incontrol explaining whats so damn op about protoss https:// www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjXGyEEE3UU&feature=youtu.be&t=894
If you achieve to be more hated than protoss something went really wrong.
Zerg and Protoss have been Caster dependant since Brood War. Nothing of this is new, or at fault, or undesired.
Only Terran can play without Casters, and even then it usually makes a few, specially Medics/Medivacs, and Ghosts.
The whole reason Terran has Ghosts (the anti-Caster Caster) is precisely because both Zerg and Protoss are extremely Caster dependant.
Psyonics are a biological ability in Starcraft lore. Machines, like the Preservers, do not have actual Psyonics, just artificial emulants.
The main reason why the Overmind sought to infest Terrans, in the first place, was because humans have nascent Psy potential, which it knew it would need to face the Protoss.
I think what he’s trying to get at is that the go-to strat for the Swarm should be swarmliness rather than mass-caster.
Remember when Terran could go mass Raven? Then they changed the Raven, and now no one’s complaining that Terran doesn’t feel like Terran. But the complaint here is that the best strategy for Zerg doesn’t feel very Zergish.
Ya I understand having them don’t get me wrong. But the way they are used now just doesn’t sit right with me, massing infestor shouldn’t be viable lol. If toss was to mass HT it would be more of a detriment than a good thing (as it should be) hell even having that many ghost at a time isn’t a good thing lol. In my opinion zerg should have the option to go devourer or scourge for that extra help in AA, not be cradled by a bunch of almost limitless energy vipers and ridiculous infestors.
Lol but that really was one of the main reason why he lost. He kept losing key engagements so any eco damage he took he couldn’t replace because he had to make more army units instead of droning. His vipers kept getting zapped before they could get the abducts off and it was costing him everything because lurker/hydra/viper is based on the viper. The reason why I was comparing a pro vs a non pro is because everyone is acting like ANYONE can use that comp and be good lol that’s not the case at all. The masses and even a lot of the pros are still struggling with late terran mech. I understand that vipers by themselves aren’t hard to use, but any easy unit mixed in with certain others can make it difficult to control. That corruptor/viper based comp sounds pretty low maintence to me. No repositiong burrowed lurkers, and moving hydras, splitting hydra so they don’t get melted, and micrioing vipers lol. With corruptor/viper it kinda just sound like pull and click A lol.
But that’s exactly what im saying my problem with this whole setup is. I don’t like the fact that zerg, the race that had evolved a biological (NON SPELLCASTER) answer for any threat thrown at them, is now reduced to 2 spellcasters that run everything, the zergs uniqueness is what made them so awesome too me. I don’t like that they can get a handful of vipers out, or a bunch of infestors, spam spells and win. And yes, zerg can replace an army instantly, so long as they have the money too, and that army includes spellcasters lol. Now you don’t wanna just throw yours casters away because of the starting energy thing (vipers don’t have this problem), but if I lose my army, but save my casters we are back to square one. Zergs ability to replace an entire army in seconds is extremely strong, but spellcasters make it borderline broken. Imagine if instead of what we have currently, corruptors could evolve into devourer? Or zerg had scourge so they would have to dip into that bank more often? Pair that with vipers that don’t have consume (or have consume heavily nerfed) and you have a much more balanced matchup than what we have currently will ever be because that army that is quickly replaced is more expensive, takes a little more time, and is actually beatable through skillful means and not an instant gg lol.
Lol yea, because zerg is busted right now and protoss is not. Though I sense a terran hate wave coming, those thors are kind of bs lol.
)