So, I dont really play much only campaign really but I do watch a lot of games and it does seem to me as though the Zerg are some what over powered, quite often it seems that even if they are knocked back in the early game that just leaves them on an equal footing with their opponent.
Mostly the issue from my perspective though is that Zerg can too easily take more than half the map at which point they have no need to trade out evenly and their ability to switch compositions when remaxing is very powerful and seems to come at no cost.
I am not sure why Zerg Hatcheries are only 300 minerals when Terran and Protoss both pay 400 minerals for their bases, if anything it seems to me that Zerg should be paying more for their bases, perhaps 500 minerals as they are not only a HQ but also an army production building rolled into one.
I also dont quite understand why hellbats have the light attribute, it seems to me that they should be strong against banelings and should therefore should not be taking bonus damage from them.
So, yeah; I dont know if i am right or not or if this direction would be a good one or not but it does seem to me that the Zerg should be slowed down a little bit, as i say perhaps with more expensive bases and or more expensive Queens to make the cost / risk / pace of taking additional bases more meaningful / impactful and extend the window and opportunity to slow the Zerg down in the early game.
Im not sure if i will follow the thread or not, but Im sure I will check back on it at some point and would be interested to hear what you think, paricularly an explanation or justification for the Zerg getting certainly 25% but you consider production buildings more like 50% or even 75% discount on their buildings?
Guffrus
(If you are reading this Harstem; is it IMBA or does my suggestion suck?)
This is where you should have stopped yourself. If you don’t play, only observe, you do not have sufficient understanding of the game to comment on balance
This exactly. If you don’t play the game you don’t have a clue what even the difficulties of the races are, what the current balance is or how to change it. It’s like a passenger of an aircraft telling the pilot how to fly.
Hatcheries cost 300+50(drone)+larva, drones dont just appear. Also add the Queen cost and constant inject.
u dont know this because the way this game is broadcasted is wrong, they dont show u how the game is played but how the game looks by a third person, this makes the game looks slow at times and makes viewers like u have no idea how the game is really played, and if someday u decide to hop in 1v1 ull try mimic what u saw and will get crushed and feel the game is too difficult and wont understand anything because that is not how the game is played and have no pre idea.
You have not brought any new information to the thread and I should point out to all of you that attacking me is not a valid argument and you want to talk about prerequiste knowledge you should start by learning what an argument actually is.
The ideas / arguments I have put forward are, as of this time entirely unchallenged.
No one is attacking u, we r just putting things in perspective. u cant say something is easy or hard if havent ever done it. u say Zerg is easy to take the whole map. I told u thats wrong because u havent been watching zerg constatly spreading creep, injecting and scouting, they dont show u that. u say hatch cost 300, thats is also wrong and I told u why.
Let’s do the following: you don’t have to play ladder but go to custom, select melee, create a map, add a very easy opponent and play zerg. Try to max out before 9 min on roach ravager, queens while having 1/3 of the map in creep… When you reach that goal, try to sharpen your timing and cut 30 seconds of your time.
If you run into a wall, google vibelol the bronze to GM series, look at it and try to execute it. You will soon understand why it might not be that easy as it looks.
Until then, please don’t make a fool of yourself proposing changes that make no sense.
For your info: I play all three races and main toss.
Zerg with cheap hatcheries:
Race design, they’re supposed to spread more easily than other races, supported by other things (more possibilities to remax, weaker units, faster worker production).
Zerg vision on half of map:
It actually wasn’t intended. Nobody at Blizzard expected that and it was a surprise in WoL, when Zerg players managed to spread creep significantly. But it fits race well and is taken into account when further balancing the game, so nobody bothered to nerf it.
Hellbat the light unit:
If it was armoured, it’d receive way more damage from Protoss players (stalkers, immortals, Hellbats are viable in some Terran mech situations), making them less viable. They have enough HP pool to tank a few banes a bit, however, their main goal is to fight Zerglings / Zealots, not counter Banes. (I believe). Something for something.
Slow Zerg in early game.
Liberators, Ravens, Reapers, Hellions, Oracles, Adepts, Dark Templars, Zealots. They are enough.
It’s a design introduced by David Kim, and many people do disagree with Starcraft being directed into this direction, but well, this is how the game looks like.
I actually do understand the concept of asymetrical balance and I am not saying that they should be incapable of expanding as per the fundamental design ethos, what I have said is that, it appears to me, that ability is currently too strong and should be scaled back.
Liberators are a tier 3 unit and as such are not really anything to do with the early game, though I suppose that becomes semantic and how exactly one defines what the ‘early game’ is.
Regarding the Hellbat, I didnt actually say that i think the Hellbat should have the armoured attribute, i said they shouldnt have the light attribute, they dont have to have either.
I am not saying that Hellbat are supposed to be a direct counter to banelings, a hard counter or that they were intended to be and arent functioning correctly, or anything of that sort. All i am saying is that it seems to me that they should be a bit more tanky than they actually are when facing banelings and removing the light attribute would do that.
Zerg is conceptionally intended to be at least one base up against the other races. To make that possible hatcheries need to cost less than CC or Nexus.
Another way to do this could had been to have hatcheries cost the same as CC and nexus, but to reduce it’s build time instead. Blizz chose the first option.
okay lets take a look on starting situation in a mp game : every player starts with 12 workers, 50 minerals a main structure and atleast 14 total supply due to the main building and the existent overlord, so ever race at the start has the same amount of resources
(1200 for workers + 400 minerals for main building and in zergs case hatch + overlord since hatch alone has gives only 6 supply compared to 15 of the nexus or cc )
now you want to make a hatches more expensive for no appearant reason
without heavily adjusting the zerg larva generation that will make them unplayable since terran with any reatored build will steamroll them in early game while toss also overrun zergs
why you ask? because zergs can’t make drones like scv or probes for that matter, all is dependent on the larva count so you as zerg can only build drones if there are any larva, a hatchery will only a produce a certain amount of larva without inject you are bound to be behind in worker count due to the fact that every added structure costs 1 drone while terran and protoss happily keep their worker, not to mention the fact that the amount of overlords also cuts into the worker/arme unit count since they also spawn from larva
with your suggestion you will not only cripple zergs earlygame, you put them in cement shoes and throw them into the ocean
so what is your point than?
A tough melee-range unit with conical splash damage. After finishing an Armory Hellbats can be produced from the Factory or transformed from and into the Hellion (transformation takes 3 seconds).
Hellbats are slower, moving about half as fast, but have 45 more health (50% more) and almost triple the damage against most units.
The Hellbat can be healed by both a gang of SCVs, which can also heal Hellions, and Medivacs that can target one Hellbat at once but not by multiple Medivacs; so no need to produce an excessive number to heal.
downside to hellion is they loose mobilty and weaponrange but gain substancial on hitpoints and damage so i’d argue it is worth the tradeoff, not to shabby for a 100 minerals units so they are already good equiped to deal with banelings due to the sheer amount of hp soaking up bane damage
how hard is it for terran to get up to starport and making libs? the biggest part in that equation is the cost of 200 gas for factory and subsequentialy the starport and 150 gas for the lib itself but given the fact taht you can reasonbly have a starport in terran earlygame pretty … erm early … like 3:05 starport starting production
To be honest, man. I’m no Zerg sympathizer, but they’re in a balanced to weak spot. Balanced vs Terran and very weak vs Protoss (due to the recent Void Ray buff).
Because you need to produce a queen, ergo: 450 Minerals and 2 supply.
So that they can be defended against, if they were armored, seriously nothing would stop early hellbat pushes.
Currently, Protoss are the only real balance issue in the game.
Point to where I said that. Quote it for me. Or do you just want to put words in my mouth and pretend that means something? You’re shaping up to be a great apetoss if so.
one could say you arent arguing back either. You guys are aruging about different points on different levels. They are saying you could answer your questions/suggestions yourself by playing. Try to not listen to anything coming from protoss players, they argue in bad faith.
In general, i agree they should increase the cost of hatcheries and should remove tag from hellbat would make the unit more interesting and less squishy to banelings. TvZ is a bit zerg favoured so i think some very slight nerfs to zerg could be nice (or slight buffs to terran). But then you have to take protoss into account and you realize that both races would need HEAVY buffs to even compete with the op garbage.
Hatch 300 Mineral, +6 Supply
Nexus 400 Mineral, +15 Supply
Command Center 400 Mineral, 15 Supply
you see why the costs are different, i’ll leave out the point about losing the drone. Mining time, larva… not like toss, a prob that builds 4 things in 2sec and back to mineral line.
Zerg is so slow and unproficient in the early game.
Ground units need speed upgrade and the upgrades take a long time. Creep is the wall of zerg, which zerg doesn’t have in the early game either. now you think zerg delays gas, so more mineral, more drones, better ecco… summary in most cases toss/ terra have same worker count or income as zerg even though they take 2-4 gas.
is it worth it as a zerg to tec fast? so your 3-4 hydra get stim by 16 marine? or void just fly faster around your base than hydra can follow, despite creep?
You know, guys, you don’t have to answer every nonsense.
I understand there is basically no activity on the forum but still: there is absolutely nothing to discuss here, the dude doesn’t have any understanding of the game and there are almost 20 replies here. Sometimes valid/good ideas don’t get this much attention.
So make us all a favor and think before answering this kind of … threads. (And yes, I am aware I am bumping it as well…)