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General Discussion
1

SC 2 as a Toss is horribly boring for me. The balance is atrocious, and I’ve yet to see a single original Toss macro build. Blink stalkers into a fast third base is the pinnacle of what people have come up with. That’s horribly boring and uninventive.

One could easily argue that is the only semi viable macro build to have ever graced LotV, though. That’s a big problem. Unfortunately, every build that is thought to be inventive is just a bad spin off of what I created eons ago. I’d like to see that changed. I’d like to see good spin offs. So far, only KingCobra has succeeded in doing something similar, yet still being fresh/original/and seemingly good.

The “maxpax” build is merely my build done like a noob. First off, it dates back to HotS. Second off, you were NEVER supposed to hide the gateway. In HotS, the gateway would be at their natural choke. In LotV, it would be in the middle of the map.

This build came to be, as a means to counter proxies (proxy factory, mainly). Ie., you wanted your probe to take the same path as a SCV would, if it were going to proxy you. And you wanted your gateway to be able to see incoming/outgoing scvs, to be able to deduce whether you were being proxied or not or know when to send a probe out so your expo didn’t get blocked.

What is the counter to maxpax, though? Proxy. That’s what happens when you make dumb deviations and people bandwagon random plagiarizers for views (he copies all of my builds, more or less).

I thought this opening was the worst build in all of LotV, but I’d like to see what other people can come up with, when they do it properly (not relying on luck).

P vs P. I was doing stargate robo without warp gate when the mothership was in the game. It’s a dinosaur build that has been replaced with my new build. I’d like to stop seeing that AOL version. It obviously loses to phoenix play, if you made a robo. And, you usually end up taking an expansion too late.

The newest version/evolution is walling on the low ground. 1 gateway (warp gate optional before expanding). Stargate -> oracle -> void ray, unless the other guy opens phoenixes. This build is very close to having zero counters. It’s being able to fit a stalker and a pylon in away, basically. Given how early I scout and what not, it’s possible to reach zero counters. As is, it could be meta worthy.

P vs Z is a contest to see who gets 20th place. There is no such thing as a winning macro build vs Zerg. I simply go void ray, disruptor (robo before third) and take the points until facing people competent enough to make vipers (nothing beats vipers) or expand properly.

I will pay a 100 SEND a day, maximum, to players Plat or above who win games with my builds or via using their own variation of it (as long as they don’t butcher the fundamentals/known optimal parts like maxpax).

I will give 3.33 SEND per winning replay posted in this thread, on the day that it was played (3 replays per post max. Can make multiple posts). Just link the games, say the matchup, and post either your email, discord name + discord number, or facebook user id, etc, etc.

The first person who does a variation that ends up being used by a pro, and they win, I will give them 40 dollars worth of SEND. Just post your claim to fame if and when it happens.

Down the road, I’ll give my book to anyone who purchases at least 1k SEND. It mentions things like treating hotkey setups as the 4th matchup you play. Super obvious and important stuff that no one ever mentions cause… you know… they’re busy thinking about how to do builds from 10 years ago.

P vs T Reference Rep: h ttps://drop.sc/replay/13228507
To get SEND, all you have to do is simply go pylon, gateway and proxy your gateway in the middle of the map (do not hide). This was the best ladder build in HotS, as you can expand asap, defend with a mothership, and often times warp in a dt at your proxy before it was killed.

If someone could find a way to make dts viable off this in LotV, then you’re a better man than me.

P vs P Reference Rep: h ttps://drop.sc/replay/13228827
To earn SEND, make your gateway, cyber, and stargate at your natural. And plan on going oracle -> void ray (if game dynamics call for something else, that’s understandable). Note: I’m so tired of seeing every pro play like a noob. You must wall your cannon at your main nexus, such as in this replay, if the game goes long.

I always chrono a zealot before cyber, but that’s up to you. (5 SEND if you chrono zealot).

Tip: if they go adepts, you completely wall off with a shield battery. If not adepts, you simply make a shield battery elsewhere, if need be (usually is needed).

P vs Z Reference Rep: h ttps://drop.sc/replay/13228628
There’s nothing to say. This matchup has yet to be winnable at the highest levels in macro games. GL. Tip: 4 disruptors + 2 colossi is the “magic number”/ingredient.

Unless you’re playing at high GM, you should probably win every game with this build. It’s really only interesting to see how one fares vs vipers or mass expands. You should also win basically every game with the P vs P opening. P vs T… variations are sorely needed, though. That matchup is impossible.

Anyways, GL and have fun in this somewhat “day9 monday type of thingy.” Feel free to talk about any variations you come up with and why you think they might be better than the rest or mine!

If maxpax can get builds named after him, then you can, too. Do it.

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wat nonsense are u babbling about now

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A very intelligent response. Please refrain from participating. Thanks. I’m tired of seeing people do my builds from years ago. Butchering them, at that. So tired, that I’m willing to pay for people to do new versions. Do something interesting for a change.

Protoss sucks so bad and people just want to copy what they already know doesn’t work well enough. I’d like to see new versions. I’d like to see people use their brain for a change instead of what you’ve displayed. That simple.

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At this point, maybe you’d be better off playing AoE2 DE? That might be more your pace given that it’s almost completely symmetrical in terms of what everyone can build, bar faction flavor units from castles and docks.

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Disregarding the major case of narcissism and borderline schizophrenia here for a moment, what is SEND?

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I’ll look into it. Part of this thread is due to the fact that I no longer play SC 2. I already reached the limitation for what I know to be optimal/achievable in this balance.

It would take new variations in P vs T that seemed interesting for me to want to play again. Every time I watch a stream, though, it’s someone doing an old build of mine or butchering it. Like pylon, pylon gateway is stupid. Hiding your gateway defeats the purpose. Tilts me.

I just want to see players do something interesting for a change. This game is so dead and Protoss has zero reasons to play it. We win nothing and we create zero builds. It’s absolutely pathetic. People have different strengths, so you never know what they can make work/seem optimal.

A crypto currency for social networks/sending + they have their own exchange.

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buddy… you really need to quit protoss… or sc2 altogether.

i

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I think you should start using tldr’s now , playa😅

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Your essay was over 1,000 words long, and it could have been “build void rays, hotkey to 1, a-click” and it would have been just about as accurate.

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Yeah :slight_smile: TL;DR I’m paying people to do my builds properly and paying them to come up with their own variations.

Current SC 2 is just so dumb. Only streamers “have builds” or can anoint builds for people. The entire reason people stopped doing the “maxpax” is because of pitfalls I was aware of in 2014. It’s because he was doing the build wrong… because he hasn’t created a single build to date.

It’s interesting to think about… what would people have actually come up with/be doing now if they didn’t worship 5 dollar knockoffs from China.

How long can you do stargate + robo before expanding before realizing you need to evolve? I’ve been around long enough. I know the pattern/how this goes. I’m just trying to expedite/pay for 5 years from now to simply start today.

All that needs to be said for P vs Z vs you. Why you love your 2 minute games.

The height of ignorance/bad jokes. Takes seconds to convert crypto to dollars. One of the most lucrative SC prize pools to date ended up being a BW tournament where the prize was in bitcoin before it blew up. SC 2, too.

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You forgot “and I will pay you with fake money”

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Hahahaha, I’m speechless!

Ok, back to reading…

Edit : I said it before, will say again : quit this game, stop watching it, stop thinking about it, take some time. I hope you come back here in a few years, read your own threads and have a laugh with us.

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It is what it is. People only want to act like it isn’t simply because I’m not some big streamer with some fan base to create w/e artificially reality I want. It’s a black eye for humanity. I was teaching the “maxpax” build years ago. Heck, I even wrote about it in a book. I was top 10 GM with it. Got second in like 4 midwest tournaments with it.

It’s absolutely embarrassing the lengths that people go to deny the obvious reality due to “streamer said.” It’s like are you guys all handicapped? Are you guys nerds in middle school, where being cool in your sect depends on “believing the narrative or w/e you’re supposed to.” I honestly don’t get it.

I play the guy. It’s like playing myself. The only interesting thing about the guy is that he’s doing a P vs P build that I did when I quit when the mothership core was in the game. He still takes his expansion as if the mothership core is in the game. Only interesting thing.

I’m tired of people doing builds I created 5+ years ago and acting like they created it, especially when it’s not even viable now. At least do a viable build I do or do it correctly.

Everyone acts like an idiot. Everyone streams. I can’t play a game without someone seeing it. It’s not a mystery. It’s not some grand coincidence. A few weeks ago, I saw silky in chat saying he had never seen my build before (P vs Z) and he was going to do it himself, asap. I have people asking me on ladder if they can do my builds.

That’s SC 2… NO ONE creates builds. There isn’t a single creative Toss player in this scene. Watch their streams. It’s crazy. The only person to do a single interesting thing is KingCobra. Who the h would make tempests to try to deny someone’s third or 4th base in P vs Z?

He’s the only player who actually makes you think or satisfies a curiosity. Like, for example, we all wonder what it would be like to play with perfect observer spread in P vs T. Personally, I skimp on them, as robo time is too valuable to me, and I’d die if I just sat there massing obs. But, somehow, in a matchup where Terran air is beyond broken, he’s able to make 2 quick robos work…

Man, I’d lose to vikings if I made 2 stargates to start the game. I really don’t think SC 2 deserves another 3 years. I was kinda hoping this would have been the end. The balance is horrible. Outside of kingcobra, the most interesting thing to grace Toss is the freaking cannon contain + immortals in P vs Z.

We win ZERO, yet no one creates any builds, still. Come on man. It’s like every one thinks the meta is optimal, yet no one wins, and no one balance whines. It’s so dumb. Either create a build or whine about balance. At least one… Christ.

If I can’t pay you guys to do builds properly (simply the obviously optimal parts) then there is no hope. The sad thing is, if any of you guys did any of those builds, you’d instantly gain a league… But, nah… gotta wait for streamer approval. Is there anyone that plays this game that wouldn’t classify themselves as a pencil necked geek?

The last time I played against a Toss opponent that played as if he weren’t a robot was maybe Bubbles (HotS player) or maybe 1 unknown EU guy.

2 guys in all of my playing SC 2. You guys do have brains right? In my book, nearly every build I went over many years before they were used… became the meta in BW. The “flash t vs z build” of 2017 or 2018, which was the first build that made people question whether a build was even beatable. What I was doing to a T. I offered to coach that very build way back in the day, and people said “it was too unorthodox.”

I know white/popularity pride is huge, but you guys create nothing. You like to copy stuff and then 10 years later act like the idea was all yours. Let’s just expedite it. Speed up the time line. Here’s your chance to claim something and get paid for it. Just f’ing do the basics of the build correct. Is that asking too much?

There is no such thing as a popular SC 2 player, outside of this small niche. It’s okay to use your brain, no one in real life is going to care about your imposter love affair, anyways.

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I will try again : you are the only one obsessed with all of this. I don’t care who is the first guy to make this build, and to be honest, I find it ridiculous to claim “that’s the build I created”. I think thousands of games from thousands of people from hundred of patches made what the so called meta is today.

When saying “this guys invented this build”, people are saying “this guy was the first visible one to make this build (an any variations) viable, might it be because he found a solution to the build’s weakness ; found the right patche to use it ; was the first to use a known build with sucess on a pro level ; etc”.

We don’t idolize streamers as you claim, we are just trying to learn from them / to have a good time watching them play, and we give them credit for it. If you think they have to pay you credit cause they are using something similar to what you wrote years ago (on a meta that propably didn’t fit the current version), you gonna be disapointed.

Whatever…

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It’s a bunch of people who were losers in school who are now in a scene comprised of people 100% like themselves, and this is their shot to be “cool.” Aww man, who is the most popular streamer… what’s his belief? Man, gotta make sure I toe the line so I can get that upvote and shiz. Maybe one day I can become a moderator in dudes chat!

Could you imagine if anyone popular actually created a build that became meta? They’re already the greatest thing ever, even without creating anything.

Maxpax, for instance, didn’t make anything visible or anything. He just happened to be playing a streamer who apparently never played on NA.

Not only was I top 10 GM in HotS with this build, but I had the highest win rate in GM, for P vs T, for several seasons with it. Furthermore, guess what build I did in my very first P vs T ever in LotV… I dunno, my ONLY build.

It’s just absolutely insane what the love affair is with streamers. They’re just these infallible people/god, who can’t ever be critiqued/made informed. It’s so stupid.

I tried going pylon, pylon gateway before I had even heard of maxpax. I stopped because clearly it was stupid and nothing was to be gained by it. The reason people stopped doing the build is cause he was also incorrectly hiding the gateway, which would allow Terran to proxy you without you knowing it. He didn’t even have a way to know if his expansion would get blocked, which is un forgivable.

I’ve created too many builds to care about any single one. It’s just enough is enough man. Either it’s still the slave era or everyone is incompetent. Just do the builds correctly, so we can actually ascertain whether it’s viable or not.

The maxpax, just like all of my other builds done now are really old: From 5 years ago: h ttps://www.twitch.tv/videos/47514239

It shouldn’t be hard to figure out it was the best ladder build for P vs T. It’s time to stop playing make believe… He’s not my clone. If you haven’t noticed anything, everyone copies everyone else. Some, Russians, apparently prefer copying non meta builds, though.

Everything that Beastqt was ranting and raving about… I wrote about those reasons in my book before maxpax even played the game. I mean, I’m half white and I was cool in school. It’s okay to be realistic for one minute out of a lifetime…

I’m sure it comes off as petty, but none of you would have any idea what being in these shoes feels like, anyways… But, more than anything… I’m too old to continue to watch this dungeons and dragons routine, where you just play make believe and run with it. One of your most loved figures is a guy is a “bravery coach” who admits he has 9 different split personalities to help him be brave.

You guys are really weird. For me, that’s saying something. I just play the game to create builds and try to see what’s optimal. Solve the game type of stuff. Your stupid, childish “streamer popularity games” ruin that. Just do the builds properly and then continue being morons for all I care.

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Have a good day sir.

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You guys would rather donate to streamers complaining about Toss being too OP than get paid to do builds a lot of you are already trying to do. This is how this happens. It’s called stupidity, which is fine… when a game is balanced, given you get to play against these people. Pros and cons.

You should be the only one obsessed with being a moron, but… that’s the norm.

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Agree game is very boring nowadays. Since game is designed idiotically around terran having to all in vs protoss each game, or do damage somehow. Protoss will be just holding all ins and cheeses and than game is mostly decided by that and you can’t even get to abuse op units. Pvp is boring as well, archon vs archon, and cheeses. And zvp you have to 2-3 base all in. But if you get to carriers, than game is incredibly fun for protoss, but how many times you manage to do that, with swarmhosts and lurkers…

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Absolutely incorrect… Part of why the game is boring is that Toss will always lose late game vs Terran at the highest level. I have no idea why you would think Terran has to all-in Toss. Terran should WANT to play late game vs Toss.

People think that Toss getting a fast third base some games means they have to all-in them. Zerg gets a fast third every game, and their units aren’t any worse than Toss…

It makes no difference if Toss gets ahead of Terran, because they will just turtle with tanks and liberators and Toss can’t break them. Not only can Toss not break them, but they can’t leverage their economy or unit lead to tech into anything that can punish Terran.

Until tempests are viable (need to be a lot better than they are now) every game is Terran’s to lose. No one makes tempests because they’re detrimental units. Liberators are arguably the best unit in the game and Toss isn’t even allowed to attempt to counter them. Anyone with any sense can leverage this fact to win any series vs a similarly skilled Toss at the highest level.

Every Terran unit is viable… How many Toss units aren’t viable vs Terran? I just call a spade a spade. Not only does the liberator not have a counter, but the BC, the real best unit in the game… is supposed to be countered by stalkers… It’s like watching Toss try to stop a tsunami with their hands…

The only x factor unit Toss has is the disruptor, but at the highest level… simply microing negates it.

P vs P? P vs P is largely boring because Toss players are dumb. They live to do stupid stuff. You don’t need to proxy robo or proxy anything, any game, yet… monkey see monkey do. You know why I win 99.99% of macro games in P vs P? I still make colossi. It’s that simple… Colossi still beat everyone’s favorite composition. Well, and Toss players also suck at macro.

P vs P is okay… as long as people don’t resort to stalker, disruptor from the get go. Facing that is worse than facing swarm hosts in HotS. It’s not fair. It’s not RTS. It’s just a lot of stupidity.

P vs Z… Zerg late game isn’t really stronger than Terran now. Carriers can be good vs noobs or people who don’t have a sufficient economy. But, corruptors annihilate them and a player with good viper usage… they’re just not going to lose games. Every game is theirs to lose. There’s no satisfaction to be had in beating Zerg, because you know winning or losing was up to them more so than yourself.

The only real way to beat a good player with sky toss is if they’re not used to facing it and they under make vipers. Every now and then a guy will make 2 vipers and call it a day. You can win those games. You will steam roll players below that level, though.

I’m the only Toss in GM, that I know, that truly only does their own macro builds. Every matchup. When that is the case, and everyone is looking to copy people… you don’t need to have a “genius build” or better than the meta. Eventually, people will search for alternatives and copy w/e else is out there. News flash: nothing else is out there since people don’t create builds…

Inevitably people will play similarly. Like someone who was trying to copy a build but wasn’t coached by that person. I’d just like to “get it over with” and have people actually do openings correctly and then see what they can make from there.

I just think it’s sad to think people are going to wait a year or however long until their favorite streamer starts doing these openings and “names it after themselves.” I’d rather watch than play. I’d like to see something interesting for a change.

When your race never wins tournaments and is sub 50% in all matchups… worshiping the meta is so freaking stupid. Try something else or spend your time telling the balance team why you can’t win… I hate seeing Toss be so content with playing for last place, even if it is inevitable.

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Do you even watch starcraft 2. It is always some attacks like marine 2 tank push. Or timming to kill a third, or drop in the main and attack third. Terran is always on 2 bases, trying to kill protoss right away or he dies to economy. One period it was scvs pull every game. Or terran tries to economic cheese to win… proxy rax etc.
Yes if you get to the lategame, than terran is favored with epm, but protoss will be on 6 bases vs 3, so even if you win a fight you may die from remax.