Scourges - Bring them back to starcraft to deal with Protoss mass air

General Discussion
1

Hello everyone,

It is very hard to deal with protoss mass air as a zerg in late game.

Once there is a mothership and a mix of carriers - Tempests - Void rays, you absolutely need vipers and good micro back and forth with corruptors and hydra because you are dead.

Why would zerg be forced into a caster while protoss don’t have to make one ?

I say bring scourges back to deal with those mass air one trick pony people, have it deal some area effect damage, and punish this easy A move mix.

People will think twice before having a brainless mass air army.

Bring back scourges, make them have explosion bonus against armored and or massive, i think it would be a nice addition to the game and let zerg be a more complete race.

what do you think about that ?

3 Likes
2

Only if you remove parasitic bomb as well.

3 Likes
3

Boi do hydra queen march across map when you spot 2 carrier at once 8or 9 queen and 15 hydras witch range upgrade or just nidus witch 5 swarm host they ez kill base

4

Parasitic not affect on carrier already but not about vr White die if not split

5

And how the heck do enemy air counter Scourges?

We have no Corsair and the only thing that remotely close to Valkyrie is Lib which is not even close to Valkyrie level of area denial op.

The Scourge in SC1 is also much less A-move than SC2.

Scourge in SC1 is prone to overkill. You may detonate 10-20 scourges just to kill a single BC back in SC1 due to a minor delay between Scourge dying and the damage being done. SC2 Scourge at least in Coop does not have this restriction. They are expensive but terrifyingly powerful a-move unit even more a-move than SC1.

Even if Scourge in SC2 get damage reduced to 70 instead of 110. They are still too overpowered. A testimony to how worthless SC2 air is.

And that’s speaking from the perspective of a Zerg advocator.

6 Likes
6

No need for scourges when there is the viper+mass corruptor combo whic is pretty strong.

8 Likes
7

Why continue to get hydras in the late game? Just get corruptor/viper with a few lurker/ultralisk/infestor as you see fit.

The truth of the matter is Protoss is forced to make high templars against mass corruptor while Zerg doesn’t necessarily need spellcasters until it’s a full on diverse fleet of maxed out Protoss ships. Corruptors counter every Protoss air unit (except for voidrays charged, but you can just fly away when that happens).

Nope

Not as easy as you think it is to manage in the late game at a higher level.

I think you need to improve your macro and decision making

4 Likes
8

Definitely bring back scourge. Scourge doesn’t have a plural by the way. Stop bandaiding weak zerg anti air with dumb viper and infestor spells.

Both of which are a token attempt to replace one unit, defiler. Zerg needs scourge. Also to deal with terran.

9

Most of the time I see Z players losing it’s because they were too slow when transitioning into corruptor-viper broodlord, they try to extend the midgame style by pushing all the time with hidra-lurker but that cost a lot so a couple of bad fights can end with the player without enough bank to do a proper late switch.

Hidras are ‘‘bad’’, the longer you stay with that tech, the less chances you have to win against tons of carriers with AOE support like disruptors or storm.Once a Z sees more than two-three carriers they should start making corruptors instead of remaxing with hidras, corruptors are mobile, and they have enough HP to deal with some storms and some interceptor shots,hidras are really soft and as soon they are being hit they die and trading can be dangerous.

2 Likes
10

I agree bring back scourge but nerf its dmg heavily.

11

Abduct can no longer work on air units. If you want to add scourge. Abduct+Scourge is insanely OP.

1 Like
12
  1. You have two good support casters that can make any Zerg army significantly deadlier. The game would be broken if you had these tools and didn’t need them.
  2. Every effective Skytoss army includes support from High Templar or other support units.

They don’t. Scourge were “balanced” in StarCraft I by the bad AI, area damage units, and in many cases by the opposing air unit’s ability to outrun and out-micro them.

In order for Scourge to be balanced, every air unit must be explicitly designed around them (or protected by a splash-to-air unit). Otherwise, Scourge will either be completely useless or completely overpowered against other air units and compositions. It is not possible to balance that unit in StarCraft II.

13

Zerg players really just want to amove.

14

Come on, if Z is really that bad at anti-air, they’d use microbial shroud out of sheer desperation.

15

Enjoy.

All relevant upgrades were researched.
Detailed guide in 2 steps:
Step 1: Move away when Voids activate their overcharge.
Step 2: Do not attack interceptors. Attack with shift individual carriers and void rays (focus carriers for conviniency). Drag half of corruptors and attack with shift carriers from different side/different group to reduce overkill and increase efficiency.

  1. Note 1: As Protoss adds more elements (micro, High Templars and more) you add more relevant elements from yourself.
  2. Note 2: Ultralisks are not necessary to win the fight, they represent supply that could be used for different units, kill ground buildings, High Templars, or even hydralisk support.
  3. Note 3: Getting larvas is important. But late game is concerned. Find relevant guides.
  4. Note 4: There is more resource cost in Zerg army. However, you can get rid of ultralisks and overseers (just one shot mothership in the begining) to reduce costs. Then resource cost of both armies is similar, if not lower for Zerg. Also Zergs are entitled to have better economy because of design of their race.
  5. Note 5: Works even if Protoss doesn’t throw resources and supply into getting tempests, even if he get void rays instead.
  6. Note 6: I am aware I started attacking voids with 1 void. Didn’t significantly change outcome of the battle, though.
  7. Note 7: About more early game situations, check Scarlett vs McCanning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6lgOVvbfL4
  8. Note 8: As presented in the video, Overseers can tank some long range damage as well. If you struggle, you may add overlords to the composition. Just remember to keep them in different hotkey on a follow behind your units, or to alt select them alt any free hotkey, move aside, after a-moving. It will greatly increase difficulty for Protoss to focus fire as well.
  9. Note 9: Remaining corruptors may be used to morph into brood lords, kill Protoss Air reinforcements and destroy Nexuses. Consider remaxing with more ground agressive unit.
  10. Note 10: We all know Protoss is easiest race. They will be too busy by doing aggressive a-moves, to micro. (Irony mode on:Look at me. I am a mindless Protoss player. If you faced me with Zerg-related problems, I’d play like Bronze.) Just check note 1, it makes my post a bit more universal. Even if Void Rays movement and attack behaviour is strange, Corruptors still outrun all Protoss units in this composition.
  11. Note 11: Void Rays are Protoss’ best air unit to deal with Corruptors. 28 supply of Corruptors kills 32 supply of Void Rays, when both sides do focus fire (where Voids cannot overkill, and Corruptors do overkill a bit = waste dmg potential). But balance is pretty thin. If you get just under the mass of corruptors you need, you will lose pretty hard.

If you are too slow and using shift-attack (shifting before 1st target is dead, so that corruptors will not change their command into general “stay in this area and shoot everything (interceptors) around” state, please note, I repeat the process many many times, in case I missclicked in the area, not on the unit, to prevent corruptors starting hitting interceptors) is out of your skill, then consider using mass hydralisks, a-move them and hope they will win. Perhaps they can kill all interceptors and voids, and be in strong enough numbers to finish rest of the fleet. But hydralisks are worse than corruptors in terms of dealing with air units (overall).

[Note this is not a direct comment to author of the thread, but to a person who cannot replicate corruptor “micro” from video.] Also if you are considering this part (a-move only), then I suspect you are a slow player, that will have problems with all sort of air compositions like Battlecruiser, Vikings/Liberator, or mobile ones, like mass mutalisk, oracle and banshee, regardless of their in-game balance related interactions. Also, don’t look at my APM. Huge APM spikes are common in low leagues during battles or creating units, average APM remains low.

The key is, Corruptors are so strong, Protoss’ reliable answers to mass corruptors (in Golden Armada situation) are ground-based units like High Templar and Archons, which can be countered by other Zerg units.

Now we are back to the question:

Why Protoss is forced to add casters (HTs) when Zerg don’t need to?

  • Actually isn’t. If there are no Brood Lords or other counters, just add 2-3 Archons.

  • Actually isn’t. You may decide not to try to win, after such a long and beautiful fight that lasted over 15 minutes. It is your right and decision. I am certain most of your opponents will accept it.

  • Because corruptors only shoot air (are not flexible unit), and must be better at that than Hydralisks. Mutalisk fill different role in the meta, so that leaves Corruptors and Vipers alone as units that must be able to kill Protoss air and leaving everything to Vipers would not be a good design.

  • Because it is difficult to create right amount of Corruptors, and it is risky investition. If they make slightly not enough, they die hard. If they make a bit too many, they are left with expensive army not capable of ending the game on it’s own.

  • Because Zerg has overall little anti-air choice in late-game. This way Protoss is forced to include ground units, and that promotes late-game micro fights we see and may not enjoy. However, the winner is determined by overall skill, not by the fact, that one composition/race beats another.

  • Because that forces Zerg to add his own counters and casters, or it is game-ending move.

If your opponent outmicros you, then he was overall better and deserves the victory for staying alive and putting fight long enough to get to this point in the match.

Since Zerg don’t need Scourge, there is no point in introducing the unit, unless you’re planning huge balance changes and introducing a new, big expansion (not the case).

2 Likes
16

seriously zerg lacks air units, i think there should be another air unit, maybe not scourge but something

17

It would be more like “StarCraft III” considering just how many units would have to be scrapped, replaced, or completely redesigned just to enable Scourge.

3 Likes
18

Or you know, just nerf scourge dmg. Assuming they have the same speed as on liquipedia, they can be kited by air units of all 3 races: phoenix, corruptor, and liberator.

19

Yes. But now you change topic from

you absolutely need vipers and good micro back and forth with corruptors and hydra because you are dead

To “it would be cool if Zerg has wider choice of air units”.
Since Blizzard isn’t planning on adding new expansions to the game, I am afraid it will not happen.

20

No they cannot.
First of all, the speeds listed for Brood War are on a different baseline; where the StarCraft II equivalent to the Scourge’s speed would be 5.25 in LOTV faster speed or 3.75 on normal speed. Scourge are faster than every air unit except Phoenixes, Mutalisks, and boosted Medivacs.

Second, Liberators and Corruptors have attack delays that would prevent them from effectively kiting Scourge even if they were slightly faster.

Third, the ability for a few units to kite Scourge does not balance them in other situations; because that capacity cannot be used to protect other air units. It only allows those few units with the mobility to kite Scourge to operate without a significant amount of support.

Scourge cannot be balanced in StarCraft II. The races do not have the tools to consistently protect their air forces; and far too many air units are simply unable to protect themselves from Scourge. In Brood War it was the opposite. Every air combat unit except a few notable exceptions (Carriers, Guardians, Devourers) had some mechanism to deal with Scourge; and both Terran and Protoss had air units (Corsairs/Valkyries) that could consistently protect other air units from Scourge after they reached a certain critical mass.

2 Likes