I think the “nearly everyone” bit is very exaggerated. Are you telling me that nearly all of the 4k people watching the Korean stream, nearly all of the 2-3k people watching the German stream all have the other streams on a second tab and even a 3rd or 4th tab? So no one watches only in their own language? If that were true the number of people watching in those languages would not be reflective of how many people are interested in SC2 in their respective countries. In those alternate streams Korean having the highest number and German having the second highest is not a coincidence. It is reflective of how many people are interested in SC2 in those countries.
What is even more unlikely, are you also telling me that “nearly everyone” who watches the English stream also has French, Russian and all the other streams opened in multiple tabs? If that were true wouldn’t those streams also have higher numbers than 1k or 2k considering the main stream had 30k? Even if you say that English viewers don’t open other languages but every other language also opens the English stream and that’s how the main stream had 30k it still proves that total viewership numbers like 13,000 max is incorrect(I know that number was for Dreamhack but still).
It was a colossal mistake to buff defensive mechanics and nerf offensive mechanics. All it did was prolong the game, which shifted the focus of the game from strategy/tactics to multitasking/mechanics. Managing 7 bases is 95% multitasking and 5% strategy and tactics, just due to how many things have to be managed. This makes the interactions simple and boring, and makes the game long.
I said it back then and I will say it again. The 12 worker start was a massive design mistake. Removing “game ending moments” was a massive design mistake. They gutted the most successful esports with bad design change after bad design change, and they never changed their course / learned from their mistakes. They just kept listening to idiots in the community who whined about how they lost their own games, yet who had absolutely no clue how the game works at large.
They let the pros design the last patch, and it was a complete failure that was like the cement poured over SC2’s casket. They needed big changes that shook up the meta and fixed fundamental flaws in SC2’s design, and instead they did minor tweaks to units that did nothing to fix the real issues (stalemate conditions / long games / lack of interesting unit interactions / over emphasis on mechanics / under emphasis on strategy & tactics). One of the best aspects of SC2 was that it was thrilling. They’ve completely gutted the thrilling aspect of the game by prolonging the game. It’s not thrilling, it’s boring. It’s not fun, it’s a chore.
When blizzard heard the cries of newbs dying to cannon rushes, they nerfed the ever living crap out of cannon rushes. What they needed to do was lock their course in steel, because a large minority of whiners is strongly indicative of a popular game. Listening to those whiners is a cataclysmic mistake. They listened, over and over again, and the game’s popularity dropped with each iteration. You can’t let 12 year old whiners design a billion dollar game franchise. I can’t believe I have to say that.
The game should be designed around 1-3 base plays, where 40% of plays are 2 base, 20% are 1 or 3 base, and 15% are 4 bases, and 5% are 5+ bases. This makes long games exciting because they are rare. When long games are the norm, that’s very boring, and it transforms the early and mid game from an interesting dynamic to something that players just have to do to get to where the game actually starts. Imagine having to spend 10 or 15 minutes doing chores before the actual game starts. Yeah well that’s where SC2 is right now. You are basically playing Sims for the first half of the game. Nothing of consequence happens before probably the 8 minute mark in most matchups. Reaper pokes in and nothing happens. Hellions poke in and nothing happens. Viking kills the overlords and nothing happens. BC teleports in and nothing happens. Etc, etc. Oh, finally, we get to the point where moves actually impact the game state to a meaningful degree – it only took 8 minutes of chores to get there! Aren’t we lucky that Blizzard doesn’t make it 20 or 40 minutes? Oh wait some maps do exactly that.
The Katowice finals took place the same day/time as the SuperBowl so you can’t really expect as many people to watch it compared to previous years. Anyone who is comparing this to previous years is not thinking about that fact.
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I disagree. SC2 is really awesome especially with the 12 worker start. I love BW but this is more fun.
The start of BW is boring in comparison. You actually get to play the mid game more in SC2 and the late game.
SC2 is better than ever but it’s totally normal for there to be less hype/etc because it’s over 10 years old.
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Long games are already rare. And if nothing happens in your games until the 8 minute mark it’s because you aren’t trying. You can easily end the game by or before 8 minutes pass.
The game-speed is the same as it has been since WOL. They just cut out part of the early-game build-up where nothing happens by increasing the number of starting workers. That, and they changed the UI displays and tooltips to show values in real-time instead of in game-time. Everything else is the same under the hood.
Eh, most people with a clue would agree the balance is better now than when the game was first released. Even if some naive egoistic people don’t realize that. The age of the game won’t change the fact that balance has improved since release. Which could be one interpretation of “better than ever”.
I think the balance has been really good since about 2021. I don’t know how this season will pan out with the changes. People are really complaining a lot. I haven’t played on the ladder yet so I can’t say.
Who ever misses the 6 workers start eventually probably not a terran player why games back then last longer as long as i can remember and detrimental to a terran player hands. I will never miss it . if your pertaining buffing defensive mechanics and nerfing offensive mechanics why you miss games the old widow mine drop and toss just gg? or the oracle flies in your base and a terran gg if not scouted? ok haha. Im not entitled to balance whine but as a scrub i think the game now is more playable than back then. I get to play all phase of the game. What they should consider doing now i hope is consider Raven be built on reactor since its basically no longer have and upgrade mechanic like Banshee or a harassment unit but a Support Unit . Or bring back the Speed Medivac on Techlab since its an under used upgrade.
I think I understand what you mean.
Especially the topic +5 Base, feels overwhelming.
but i have to say personally i like the 12 worker start more than 6. just from remembering how long it takes without anything happening.
Whereas there was a build in WoL, which I found cool. 11 pool → relatively safe and early queen (inject +4 larvae!)
It’s simple math. The game moves forward with or without your input every second the clock ticks. If you have double the bases, that’s double the game events that you have to manage in the same time-frame. This obviously emphasizes mechanics over strategy. In order to manage this volume of game events, you have to be able to react to game events so quickly that it’s literally impossible for strategic thinking to exist on those time scales. It’s entirely about rote memorization to get your reaction speed as fast as possible so that you can react to the massive volume of tasks in a macro game. Strategy has nothing to do with modern SC2.
If you have half as many bases to manage, that’s equivalent to doubling the amount of time you have to think about the game state & formulate strategic or tactical maneuvers.
Do you know why there are no 7 base cannon rush strategies? It’s because cannon rushes are a strategic build. The timing and placement of buildings is absolutely critical for success. You can’t do a 7 base cannon attack because you’d have to place a ridiculous number of cannons across 3 or 4 different locations simultaneously, and it’s not possible to do. Doing a single cannon rush and placing the buildings in the right place at the right time is really difficult. Doing it in 3 places at once is impossible because you’d have to do 3x as many building placements in the same time frame. That’s 1/3rd the time to A) analyze what’s on your screen, and B) decide what buildings to place where and when.
I agree with every negative post here! xD SC2 sucks!
I have uninstalled it finally, together with Blizzard launcher. Now a friend nags me to play with him, but he plays like 3 matches a year. He’s already complaining that I’m asking him 5 times “you sure you wanna play this again?”. Instead of that, why not check the forums?
But I think there’s a solution: a balance mod competition.
And I’m not just saying that because I made a mod. I would genuinely be very excited to test entirely fresh perspectives on Starcraft, and all the ideas players come up with. And in the end play the mod that was the most fun with many other players. The community wouldn’t need to rely on Blizzard either. Team Liquid could announce something like that.
Then again, when was the community supportive of anything that had potential of bringing life back to SC? All I see is backlash when new ideas pop up.
Omg, I’ve searched for these once, failed to find anything working.
I couldn’t have put it better myself. Have been playing for 18 years straight. Then suddenly stopped after LotV beta.
I think that is the big problem: how many chores this game has. You can’t focus on the game itself.
I think that’s why players begged for the removal of macro mechanics, back during LotV beta. Then they reported that the game felt more strategic. But Blizzard had an argument to shut them up: “no, pro players have trained macro mechanics for months, that’s why it needs to stay”. Then they all left.
The day I decided to give up on SC2, too…
My hope now are Frost Giant and Microsoft.
I think I agree, I would put it differently though: the game starts when players are maxed out and teched out. Blizzard made it that this stage arrives quicker. Before that it’s just some harass flying around, literally flying around: Medivacs and Oracles. Maybe a sole mine or a few Banelings, things than CAN do gameending damage with only little investment (ever seen a Terran who went for quick Medivac drop and then was behind because of it?). Anything else is a huge gamble because the maps are so big and the supply raises so quickly, by the time an army arrives the opponent always has enough even after playing extremely greedy - thus extremely greedy became the default playstyle.
OMG you’re still here. xD Denier of problems. That’s why they made you MVP. Or maybe you’re a Blizzard employee?
I guess it will be my only comment then. Maybe I come visit in 10 years and see if you’re still here, still defending this pile of garbage. xD Till then, keep denying!
Agree. After LotV I switched to playing shooters, for the first time in my life, particularly Hunt Showdown. It feels 100x more strategic to me than SC2. While in SC2 my strategic mind just got suffocated, I can actually live it out in Hunt Showdown, even despite shooting like a fish with 2 eye patches instead of eyes, good strategy can really turn the tables there. Something I haven’t experienced in SC2 for a long time.
I think it comes down to how fast players get maxed out in SC2, I’ve seen some do it in 7 minutes. The timing window to accomplish anything before that point has gotten absurdly minuscule, regular players can’t achieve it anymore and even pros don’t attempt much except 1-2 all-ins they’ve trained.
I’m always saying: imagine you have to play Need for Speed on 16x speed. Would that be fun?
This doesn’t come down to only the worker start though. They could’ve made 9 or 10 worker start instead, and I’d be fine with 12, but with everything else combined… Midgame is now when everyone is maxed out.
When and because LotV released, I stopped playing SC2 altogether.
Describing things as autism is one ignorant and ableist thing to do. Don’t care that I’m necroing when it’s calling foul on something as rotten as this.
I am all for it. There are almost 500 less zerg players in masters, than protoss players and 600 less than terran players. They should at least halve the cost of the queen as well as buff its range back to 10, because it is the only source of zerg anti-air until the late game, hopefully it will bring the zergs numbers in the line with terran and protoss.
Terrans are more forgiving in mechanics, balance and gameplay. They do better in lower leagues where Zerg and Protoss players are bogged down by mechanics, gameplay and balance. More people play them and more people do well with them. The full potential of Terrans is never out of reach of the players hands.
Protoss is much harder in the lower league because of the poor balance/cost, mechanics and gameplay. but people who grasp good compositions do better. Less people play them and even less people can master them. By Master, I mean, which compositions win games
Zerg is starts off worse than other to initially. But once you master the mechanics, gameplay and balance/eco you get better. Until you go past Diamond where just having a larger eco is not enough and you need to add in micro which might get harder for people to maintain during a game. You master Zerg faster than Protoss but aren’t top dog until you add in you own variation of cunning ruthlessness like Dark, Serral, Solar, etc.
Player numbers matter upto Diamond where the sample sizes are large enough its best to just count win rate after diamond. I conclude that Protoss and Zerg needs more Buffs and Terrans need more nerfs.
