Prevent terran from using less than 72 scv and spamming MULES.
prevent terran from defending a planetary fortress in mid/late game using only scvs.
prevent terran from defending a supply wall in early game using only scvs.
delay tactical jumped cruiser rush.
delay siege tank ground immunity.
Thors require upgrades mirroring Ultralisks : range = speed
Marines require upgrade mirroring Zerglings : range = attack speed
Zerg receives an upgrade mirroring Terran Faster mode transfer - it is too common for zerg units to be killed while morphing.
hatchery is very easily target fired. losing a hatchery can be game breaking because of larva counts.
I see you too want to remove the Terran race and make it a 2 race game.
All of these changes are garbage, all of then are thoughtless and have no logical reasoning behind any of them. Maybe the only one I could get behind is the nuke idea, but even that is abuseable, and frankly a questionable change.
This is a terran buff - fixing tactical nukes is a huge improvement.
marines required to take a new upgrade
thors should require upgrades - they are available before ultralisks and require no upgrades to function well.
Siege tank is available before lurker or colossus and requires no upgrades.
can set multiple 0/0 siege tanks around and deny all ground units.
Carriers should require upgrades - they are clearly an overpowered unit
Hatchery Deserves a buff, planetary fortress/ nexus in the late game receive upgrades to shielding/building armor -with batteries or scv’s repairing they absolutely outclass what would be queens transfusing a hatchery.
Hatchery will have the same life it does in early game as it will late game. it does not gain armor from upgrades. the only way to make a hatchery more survivable is for zerg to turn them into lairs
It’s a minor buff at best and does nothing to aid what is effectively a nuke to Terran at all stages of the game with your other changes.
Why? Unnecessary. All this does is make marines worse for no reason other than “because screw Terran, that’s why”. It literally is a change made because you don’t like Terran, and has absolutely catastrophic results for every vs T matchup.
They also produce significantly slower than both protoss and zerg units (Zerg produces in batches, protoss can increase production through chrono). Removing their 1 base armour also completely negates their already mediocre ability to counter mutalisks, as well as broodlords, which the Thor is an intended counter for both, as well as completely removing their ability to counter Carriers and BCs.
Again, a thoughtless change that is an unsubtle attempt to remove Terran from the game.
Siege tanks, like thors, also produce slowly because of limitations on bases and production. Unlike Zerg you can’t just pop out 12+ siege tanks at the same time. The tank count takes a LONG time to build up, especially when they’re on 2-3 bases. Oh, and tanks have a minimum range in which they cannot fire while sieged, and have the longest siege up time of any siege unit in the game.
Like the other changes, this change is literally a change made purely off the basis that you effectively want to completely remove Terran from the game.
Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t. Zerg arguably has the best counter in the game with corruptors and vipers allowing you to kill carriers off fairly easily. The carriers were never the issue, it was the ground support that made carriers hard to deal with.
Additionally, this change is actually a buff because you have completely neglected to remove the previously increased attack-speed rate of the carrier back when it was redesigned not to need graviton catapult. Not only that, but by adding graviton catapult back, you actually create a window of burst DPS from the interceptors launching - it’s clear you have no actual idea what you’re suggesting with this change.
Unnecessary purely off the basis that 1 you have a lot of queens at the time, and 2, creep spread is a thing that gives you a ton of map vision and makes such an upgrade effectively unnecessary.
Both of these already get more HP than their previous incarnation. Please stop suggesting changes when you very clearly have no idea about anything even remotely related to this game.
As I said before, these changes are a blatant attempt at straight up removing the Terran race from the game and making sc2 a 2 race game. The changes are biased and unbalanced, and frankly straight up throw any consideration for effects on the other matchups. They are bad changes, and you should feel bad for suggesting them.
The nuke works that way for a reason, if terran will have endless nukes, the would become way different, then right now, that why it also shows the red dot. The nuke does need a counter play.
Marines already have 2 upgrades, without which they are pretty weak and these upgrades take enough time to come into play.
Thors indeed are viable before Ultras, but they are the counter to Mutalisks, which are also available before Ultras.
Siege tanks are not lurkers and are needed to counter many builds, especially before stimpack is done, so comparing it to lurker makes no sense, as zerg can defend with poor lings most units in the early game.
Carriers die to even double less supply of corruptors.
Because toss can’t have vision onto the whole map, and terran doesn’t have warp-ins and zerg mobility. If you ever use creep spread, there is no way, of how someone would attack your hatchery without you seeing it on the minimap way ahead.
You have only 1 Hive and Lair, so your change changes nothing, because zerg rarely loses main base and if terran makes doom drop, nothing will not save your hive against 50 supply of marines, marouders.
that’s why terran can’t complain about lurkers. Because they need 2- hive upgrade and come late in the game.
i get the point, but i think the design idea behind it is that zerg spreads out. right comes the attack → secure the drones on mine on the left. if necessary rebuild the base.
No, multiple thors are required to counter mass mutas, 2 - 3 thors would usually not be able to hold it. Thors are viable against broodlord, but only when there are few, after reaching huge number of broodlords, there are way to many broodlings and terran losses units faster, than he kills broodlords, so does need ghosts. So I would not agree that Thors completely counter spire.
Tanks being available earlier doesn’t matter when the lurker can come out in large numbers extremely quickly, and burrow almost instantly, while also moving at the speed of a helion. Players have a right to complain about Lurkers because they’re wildly over-tuned.
Thor at best is a soft counter to spire units. Its got minimal splash damage, is extremely expensive and slow so are rather rubbish outside of taking direct fights, and are extremely prone to pathing issues due to their size. it usually takes a fairly significant number of Thors to be effective against any spire tech, an investment that is generally as much if not more than what you’re generally trying to counter.
I never said tanks were bad, you assumed that was what I meant - I did not. I said they had downsides that allow for counter-play. Lurkers do not.
Lurkers are insanely mobile, have more health than tanks do, are cloaked units and also siege near instantly. It doesn’t matter that they come out at hive tech, they are over-tuned and cost exactly 25 gas more than a tank does, including the cost of a hydralisk.
Lurkers completely break any and all design principles of a siege unit. Siege units should be either A) Long range and have splash damage, but be slow and immobile (siege tank), B) have splash damage and be mobile but be short range (Colossus), or C) have range and some mobility, but no splash damage (tempest). The lurker has all 3 categories, and on top of that are durable, and as previously mentioned, also require detection to kill. This means you can quite literally never out position them because they can reposition really, really quickly (they’re quite literally as fast as hellions on creep, and slightly slower off creep), and burrow instantly meaning that even if you catch them out of position, you can never actually use that because they will siege immediately and kill your units.
Most games, at least at pro level, will start hive around 8:00-8:30, and get a lurker den in the process. From there it takes exactly 71 seconds to build hive. You can already have lurkers fielded by then, and less than a minute for each of the lurker’s researches. The earliest you can have upgraded lurkers is (if you have 1 lurker den) 11:04 assuming you start research on time. Which in theory, sounds fine if you don’t take into account the fact that zerg produce everything in batches, meaning you can literally build 20 lurkers at once and simply kill your opponent. Generally you’re not going to have the income for that that early, but the point stands.
It is illogical and bad design, and frankly, one of those things needs to go. I don’t mind them being burrowed units - that’s a perfectly acceptable Zerg trait. I also don’t mind them having range. That’s a perfectly acceptable trait for a siege unit. However they should not also have instant-burrow and be one of the fastest units in the game.
If I were to nerf the lurker, I’d remove Adaptive talons from the game, but as compensation allow the lurker den to research Seismic Spines at lair tech instead. Even without adaptive talons they’re still fairly quick, not to mention bulky units.
I feel I should also point out that even without Adaptive Talons, lurkers STILL have the fastest siege time in the game at 2 seconds. Liberators take 2.8 seconds to siege, tanks take 2.4 seconds to siege, widow mines take anywhere between 2.1 and 2.5 seconds to burrow/unburrow (and are short range units anyway) without the Drilling Claws upgrade.
but it makes a difference.
ask yourself how many TvZ games are there with Tank and how many with Lurker?
there are many more games with Tank!
Because the tec path is not long. The factor when a unit comes is an important element in the game.
Your crying would be acceptable if lurkers were early in the game, but they are not.
example: old hydra timing attack strong! why? only 1x upgrade for range/speed. when you split again? not so popular anymore because it hits too late.
you describe what “in your opinion” are siege units and do not realize that lurkers are exactly between A and B?
Siege tank → 13range/ siege mode
Colossus → 9range /no siege mode
pay attention:
Lurker → 10range / fast siege mode
lurkers force detection, but they can only attack in siege mode or walk up and down cliffs and come relatively late in the game with full strength only after 2 upgrade.
nice that you admit to yourself that this is not true. fast lurker tec into → immediately 20 lurker. in your logic:
terran can build 20 factories and builds 20 tanks at the same time and 10 workers parallel…
or in other words, it’s just too expensive.
call lurker a “bad design”, but then have a unit in TvZ that is actually “anti-caster”, but at the same time counters all T2+ units of zerg efficiently…
has options for harass and poke.
true it is the Ghost…
as I said, if you look at the interactions in TvZ in general, it makes sense (speed/ fast burror). You can say ok fast burrow is essential. then increase the un-burrow time.
otherwise you have no synagy in the zerg army, at engage.
for example: you say if “lock-on” remains active Cyclone does not move…
This is a missrepresented argument and you know it, because 20 factories is 2500 minerals and 1000 gas in production alone. I really don’t believe you’re that stupid to think that this is somehow equal when zerg spends very little on production. It’s why Zerg tech buildings cost more. Their production is centralized, unlike Terran and toss tech.
Eeehhh… yes and no. There are more with tanks because tanks have been around longer. Wings used tanks because thats all terran had and frankly they were terrible back then. LotV fixed tanks, and tanks were seldom used at all in HotS. Lurkers have really only been around in LotV, and frankly were underutilized for the longest time. And now theyre used in the majority of TvZs.
Again, irrelevant as explained before.
And it was split because the timing was to strong, in particular against protoss. Oh and they buffed the hydra a ton too.
10 range is long range. 9 range is still long range, but not compared to other siege units.
Fast burrow is not the only problem here, like I said before. You really aren’t doing a very good job countering my points…
This is true, and as I said they already habe the fastest siege time even without Adaptive Talons.
A whole 'nother kettle, but this discussion isn’t about the ghost, which has its own issues, its about the lurker.
Not really. Not when you consider the base burrow speed and base move speed of the lurker as well. They already burrow quickly and do not need to burrow faster still. They are already fast moving units, and do not need to be faster still, and frankly are the fastest siege unit in the game, and have the fastest siege up time in the game even without the upgrades. They are quite literally one of the fastest units in the game, and do not need them to be effective.
it matters because 1 siege tank is enough to counter virtually all ground units.
1 thor is able to shut down virtually all air units.
terran typically doesn’t even upgrade siegetanks or thors, they set 0/0 siegetanks at each base and this effectively counters all ground units for zerg - forces zerg to go into hive tech or air units - which are countered by basic marines and 1 thor.
needs to be delayed so terran is not permitted to turtle on 1 barracks 1 factory 1 starport vs endless numbers of ground units and the air units made to respond to this.
people going on about how u need 3 thor as if thats inappropriate but as usual terran players forgetting 99% of their own advantages -
marines already counter mutalisks - 1 thor and marines is enough to shut down mutalisks. even in a world where 3 thors is neccesary thats only 1200/900 resources vs say 10 mutalisks ? thats 1000/1000 - there is no world where ten mutalisks will beat 3 thors, if u add 20 more mutalisks u just get 30 dead mutalisks.
Marines are a massive problem and if anybody tries saying they aren’t the most powerful basic unit in the game, I would laugh. they are the only basic unit that is massed into late game and it is scary to me how terran thinks it is even appropriate to be running all marine armies -
sure banelings can kill alot of marines but this is nothing compared to widow mines cleaning out mutalisks - nothing compared to siege tanks or planetary wiping entire supplies of ground units.
Marines are one of the only unit that can actually counter its counter unit - banelings require speed upgrades to catch marines, without those upgrades or without proper positioning marines will actually make short work of banelings before they ever enter combat. if terran places marauders, or any units besides marines upfront, they can wall out the banelings. marines can split, studder step, all kinds of ways for them to actually win a fight designed to beat them.
I have seen hundreds of games where terran Continues playing marine medivac into Ultralisk bane - for 15 full minutes. I have seen terran win this engagement Multiple times. Ultralisk bane is designed to counter marines.
terran has no need to transition to a more appropriate army, they literally just think they are supposed to increase apm and macro up more marines.
at what point does terran need to use a different army composition?
the massive problem here is that Marines are not Open to 90% of the issues ultralisk bane are open too - ultralisk bane have no anti air, if terran swapped to banshees, cruisers, 80% of zergs army is rendered ineffective based on terran swapping army composition alone.
this is not even close to true for terran - if zerg tried to swap out into mutalisks or broodlords - and this is the entire problem - the marines STILL counter Mutalisks, thors will STILL counter broodlords.
this is why terran is SO ridiculously overpowered because the same units that are able to BEAT their counter army, perform flawlessly at the job they are actually designed for.
my zerglings do not provide anti air and i dont live in a world where i think my ultralisks should counter carriers.
it seems appropriate that if my opponent went air i should probably be running a lot of corruptors, not spamming zerglings all game, right?
but not as terran, just keep spamming those basic marines boys, and keep pretending your race isnt absolutely OP.
fun fact 90% of terran players cant play any other race.
90% of zerg players play other races better than their main.
i am higher league as terran/protoss than i am as zerg, despite being a zerg main.
there are a large number of zerg players so sick of this they have just swapped to terran themselves.
how many terran players are proving zerg is op by swapping to zerg?
very few because terran players can only play terran 90% of the time and this is text book overpowered.
no this is 100% What i am thinking, you seem to be a terran player that believes you should be able to counter devoted capital ships using the limited anti air provided by your ground units.
every other race when facing capital ships (broodlords, carriers, cruisers) immediately panics, then spins around and converts their army into something better suited to taking down Capital ships.
except terran. despite having a perfectly good unit called a viking, or spellcasters called ravens, you believe that when you see capital ships, you are just suppoed to continue hammering out the same army composition you were already running?
you think the problem is that thors didnt have enough range? and believe your 1 thor should be able to completely shut down thousands resources worth of mutalisks?
i mean you started with insults like stupid. therefore…
I can accuse you of the same thing:
because it is clear that I mean Lotv… and even there I claim that there are more total TvZ with tanks than with Lurker.
why? 2 -base timing or generally tank push.
This shows that Lurker is a tec intensive unit. And reinforces the statement that the time window plays an important role.
and are so naive and believe Zerg gets ecco/ tec / units for free…
TerranT3 BC → ~6min rush… with 3 Base in the background.
Zerg Lurker rush? ~8-9min how many? 2-3 oh, yes terran is scared… Scan → stim → a move with 40+ MMM…wow
or just multi drop why because zerg can’t def that with 2-3 lurker.
you started with the comparison, but no just don’t admit that some things are similar…
but it is important…
because if Zerg builds 4-6 Lurkers ~ min 10+ terran can easily have 8+ tanks, if not more.
if T has not already won the game with multi drop and TANK push.
right it was strong…because you had a powerspike for hydra early on.
Lurker strong → long tec away at zerg… again the point that it is understandable that Lurker is strong, because later powerspike.
13 range is longer > 10(lurker) >9 ( Colossus) … what is your point?
what is your point you write about range and mobility? and lurker is between tank and colossus, A and B as you call it. Lurker is in between your own definition… but still you cry…
normal it is an advantage for Terran, as Terran I would also say nothing …
because you have no arguemt why Ghost are so overloaded in TvZ. old Sh were bad for Sc2 because in Hot’s zerg had a strong counter to Turtle, but in real it’s the Terran since WoL who ruin the game with Turtle style.
read again what you have commented…
how is the general TvZ interaction?
Zerg must engage terran… → your idea for lurker runs slow → that a) terran can just run back. b) lurker get hit more by aoe/ range attacks…
→ slow burrow → burrow in and the fight is over…
think again about the synagy… Roach/ ling /hydra (?)/ bane Ultra are these units that force Terran into lurker range? NO they do not on the contrary most of the T run back.
