Raynor: P3 OC rush versus P0

Co-op Missions Discussion
1

On a different topic, the idea of rushing Raynor P3’s first OC at 15/15 supply before even making a depot was brought up by Faerr. The idea being that it might make P3 pretty much as good as P0 at a Bio build. I got curious about it, how much of an impact if any would it make?

Soooo, on Mist Opportunities, and using Maguro’s version so I could turn off enemy AI (for consistency) I did 2 runs of 2 P3 variants and a standard P0 build (though being as greedy as possible.) All expansion rocks were broken via Banshee calldown.

P3: OC > CC > Depot Cash in Bank CCs OCs Supply Depot Total
1 3:00 345 1 2 20 1 2345
1 5:00 260 2 4 31 1 4410
2 3:00 300 1 2 21 1 2350
2 5:00 270 2 4 31 1 4420

P3: Depot > CC > OC Cash in Bank CCs OCs Supply Depot Total
1 3:00 375 2 1 21 1 2275
1 5:00 130 2 4 32 1 4230
2 3:00 370 2 1 21 1 2270
2 5:00 285 3 3 32 1 4235

P0: Depot > CC > Barracks > OC Cash in Bank CCs OCs Supply Depot Barracks Total
1 3:00 135 2 1 21 1 1 2185
1 5:00 65 3 3 32 1 1 4165
2 3:00 145 2 1 21 1 1 2195
2 5:00 85 3 3 32 1 1 4185

So yeah! Rushing OC at 15/15 supply is quite profitable over building that first depot/CC, even with my not exactly perfect early game macro.

Versus P0 though, I’m not sure the difference is large enough to overcome early game as a Bio build. Mid and late game though P3 could still max and remax just as easily, naturally with heavier strip mining of course.

Moral of the story though? Regardless of builds as P3, rushing that OC asap is very much the right call.

3 Likes
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When I was lvling his P3, I tried to rush OC from lvl 1 before depot, and the result was satisfactory, so I was doing that ever since. But I am still curious if that is right call in the long run.

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I would under no circumstance shoot for OC and then a CC before even making a single supply depot. You just slow down your economy too much. It will also hamstring your army ability.

4

Thanks for this info :slight_smile:

question for myself: Is there a site with recommended build orders for prestiges? Or at least for p3? Ive only played one game yet on brutal dead of night with his p3 and fresh unlocked bcs. whole game was more hectic than bio before :frowning:

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One MULE is worth several scv. It’s worth it.

1 Like
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You also have to divert some for the gas. Especially if you want to go p3. 30% off is nice but it’s still gas heavy. I still say go for at least one supply depot before you make a CC. especially if you got orbital supply depots.

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I think OC>Depot>CC would allow the best non interrupting scv production.

2 Likes
8

Thanks for testing Rick. :+1:

Even when evidence is right there (unless I’m reading the table so wrongly), omfg Ox.

9

omfg what? Dude. You’re the least qualified person to omfg anyone, what with your self absorbed attitude. Starting to think you really just want reactions at this point, maybe you’re just lonely.

2 Likes
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By the way, how many OCs is needed to contantly produce BCs? On practice, it feels like it’s 4, more for scans.

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Didn’t know P3 lets you have the gas to constantly make them?

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Uuuh, yes? 2 starports and armory upgrades, can sneak a 3rd starport once you start +3 upgrades.

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Look, don’t need to bother with this dude at all.

Apparently when Starport doesn’t cost you gas, saving 300 gas early on cost somehow more gas than “needing to divert SCV for gas”. And clear data showing getting more minerals is “less optimal than getting a depot first”.

This is exactly why I went “omfg”.

It’s not just the rude way he says things on here. It’s when reality is literally slapping him in the face, he’s here arguing about it like everyone else needs to learn how to play Raynor.

14

P3 BCs are 600 min 162 gas
on 2 bases
You have gas for almost 3/minute
You get minerals for ~2/minute

To get enough minerals for 3/minute you need ~3 OCs

2 Likes
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I wanted to see how well rushing eco at the expense of ramping up supply slower works in practice. Numbers about minerals gathered on a paper doesn’t prove how overall well it works over the course of a game. So unless you got something to show, shut your trap and let people try this for themselves instead of taking your word as gospel.

I see you’re replying. Yeah, you totally want reactions. I’m not even gonna reply. I’m gonna try this for myself and see how it works.

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See? Not even 1min after.

So why don’t you go try it, post your video of how Depot first on P3 is a better economic opening, then come back and discuss?

Nobody is asking to believe it like it’s the hard truth. But what’s the point of hard denying it’s not good when you haven’t tried it? Why is it extreme ends for you?

You don’t have to believe, sure. But it’s so wrong for others to believe the data? And Rick is just here to Rickroll us all right?

17

MULEs in coop last 90 seconds and returns per trip 45 minerals compared to the regular 5.
So one MULE for 90 seconds is worth 9 SCVs, even more when you take into account it wastes less time traveling and pathing to free minerals.

Rushing OC is always the best.

1 Like
18

Just did a test run:

By 5min I actually had:

  • 4 OC
  • 2 Barracks
  • 2 Gas
  • 1 Depot (may be a mistake here tbh)
  • 2 plotted down Engineering bays (250min)
  • 3 SCV in production (150min)
  • 32 Supply count (this is in SCV only, no units made as calldowns carries… for those curious, yes I killed the first Thrasher and wave 1 after 5min with Hyperion)
  • Expansion cleared (this is done at 3min via Dusk Wings, as you’d expect)
  • Banked resource despite the above 210/56 (total: 660/56, not accounting the already built 2 x Barracks and 2 x Gas)

For reference, this is on VT, with my average macro skills.

As I played through, I found early game isn’t too bad. The issue is transitioning out on 4OC. At around 100 supply cap 8min ish (accounting for a lot of loss cuz my bad micro and against HeavyMech, so lots of Tanks). It was difficult to continue increasing supply max while maintaining bio population again on 4 OC.

Despite this handy cap, and based on my bad play through. The theoretical 200max should be reached on 4 OC at 12min no problem, accounting for the usual loss (and not unlike my game).

I noticed my supply floated around 100 for 5min all the way until the end (a 17min VT). Tbh, this is quite slow of a VT for me. My overall feel though is this P3 mineral gimp doesn’t slow down Raynor at all in terms of P3 bio play.

This was quite refreshing as far as developing another new build order to a known strong build. This was a single play through without any real planning except going OC first. I suspect the numbers can be much higher and that the sustain issue trivialized on 6 OC at a minimum.

Oh, in re-checking, I should also mention I forgot to change my mastery. So I was running all of the above with No Drop Pod Mastery.

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Going CC > Depot is much better in practice, the depot will go down just before the OC finishes morphing. It’s actually all amazingly tight and clean that way.

1 Like
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https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft2coop/comments/ip6rdq/analysis_of_raynor_p0_vs_p1/

This kinda already gives you the answer to OC eco. If somehow you meant supply depot before OC on P3, it’s just straight up delay in eco, MULEs are that good.

1 Like