Raynor p1 macro issues not enough ways to spend gas

Co-op Missions Discussion
1

I think anyone who has played a few matches or even has some experience raynor knows what I am about. it’s a very mineral heavy commander, and you end up piling up gas
I end up making bcs as a way to spend my gas past a certain point
but I might as well play p0,p2,p3 in that case if I start to go heavy mech

I also think that making his static defenses buildable by infantry and making them cost gas instead of minerals would be nice

What’s the point of trying to play solo infantry when you cant and disruptors/colossi still destroy your forces? yeah 127hp marines are nice, they wont disintegrate from one second of storm, but still.

2

raynor p1 is known to suffer vs reaver/disruptor. you just have to rely on top bar to take care of most of the wave before engaging, and split well.

don’t get more than 3 refineries as p1. if my army is mainly marines, i just get 2.

3

i get that some dont need the gas, but the real issue is that raynor’s infantry is too basic in general. it also doesnt feel like a truly rag tag team of raiders and mercs tbh
tychus got that feel but his units are essentially 4-5 hero units
I wanted a building like the merc building in the campaigns for either of them
I would even take ghosts/spectres/anything to improve ways for raynor’s utility with infantry

skipping gas also doesnt undo the fact that you barely manage to make enough minerals on a commander that’s intended to be mineral heavy but also has a very solid and natural solution to it (edit)

4

I think that’s my biggest takeaway with P1. Your bio-ball is generally so tanky that you have the resources to spend on some mech support. Against Protoss Mech, I usually get 8 BCs to help soften up waves by tac jumping in and yamato-ing reavers and disruptors then meet up with the bio-ball to mop up. Getting P1 doesn’t mean you just build barracks and spam infantry.
Edit: Actually 4 is already good but I’ve got money to spend and I like BCs so I get 8.

5

I agree. I mean it’s literally easier and better to add mech anyway, that’s my main gripe
I fully understand that raynor is a mixed type of unit commander and as a result of being terran it’s far easier and faster to macro for that, as well as having simpler and fewer upgrades for their stats (4 upgrades to max all units, most have 5)
I am not “complaining” that I want a blind buff to his infantry with just a small vespene gas cost. I am just saying it feels as an off kilter p0 or p2 with a severe drawback and barely anything of value to show its specialty/utility/extra nuance and so on

also static defense is rather lacking for all prestiges in the first 3 commanders (jim,sarah, artanis) hence Why I made a suggestion in another thread about being able to build static defense and upgrade it with p1.

6

Suggestions are all well and good but afaik we can only change the stats and fix bugs as SC2 is already in maintenance mode. The fixes aren’t even regular and are made by someone in the community. I guess you just have to deal with how P1 is or try out the other commanders.

7

I can’t remember where the replay is, but I believe on shorter maps P1 has the speedrun record. Raynor is listed as an easy commander, but actually playing well is definitely not easy.

It’s possible you’re going too early on your first refinery. See if you can find some replays where LilArin plays P1. P1 is also quite different in the sense that you put more apm into unit micro, whereas in P0 macro is more important.

Raynor has Battle Bunkers and hitscan units, so he actually has one of the best static-d. Swann, Karax, Stukov, & Mengsk are better. Zeratul & Zagara (bile launchers) are situationally better.

8

I am aware I just vent a bit I guess

@Caffeine
hitscan units?

9

Haha, of course. :slight_smile:

There are three types of attacks - melee, ranged hitscan, and ranged projectile. Projectile attacks can be blocked by point defense drones, dodged (you’ll see high teir ladder players blinking to dodge mine & stalker attacks, etc.), while hitscan attacks are unaffected. With static defenses this means that missile turrets, spore crawlers, and photon cannons are at a big disadvantage against Missile Command and Power Overwhelming (unit PD spells).

10

Reynors macro is difficult… that’s why you almost never meet anyone playing him. Most are just too bad to play him on any decent level.

Bio units are the core of P0/1/2. Factory and starport units are for support.

Most common mistake with Reynor, is too few orbitals and/or too few barracks. You can never have enough orbitals until you have enough to mine your minerals dry. And 15 barrack is still a whole lot better than 10.

APM is nice for bio micro, but it’s not top of the list. You don’t need to be GM, to drop 10 mules or queue up 50 barracks units.

Next common mistake probably is building the wrong units. Marines are great units against the right enemy, but so are marauders, fireballs and mines. And tanks, banshees and Vikings are great too, even if you don’t play P3.

Tip: put spider mine hotkey on rapid fire. Might consider doing that for mules too, but I never felt the need strong enough to actually do it.

11

Zeratul - Knowledge seeker has the best static D in the game if you are on point with your artifact pickups and don’t forget to put shieldguards for support. Plus you can even consider them mobile, even if you don’t pick projection cooldown reduction.

Reynors D is good, but zeratuls is no more situational than any other.

12

The commander description listing Reynor, Kerri and Artanis as „easy“ is not cause they are easy to play, but easy to learn, since they are quite similar to ladder with their macro. At least that’s what I think of their description.

1 Like
13

if you dont need the gas, then give it to your ally cause most likely they will need it. thats a no brainer right there. Boy peoples stupidity just amazes me anymore.

14

There aren’t any mules in P1, hence why the macro is much easier. With P1 there’s very little macro after the early game which gives players more time to focus on their army.

Have you tried cannons against point defense drones? Of course they scale with Knowledge Seeker, but that does nothing to change their attack type, which is specifically what was being talked about. So yes, Zeratul is only situationally better than Raynor, not basically always.

Or can you prove that projectiles are better than hitscan?

15

Didn’t even read the title… thought he talking about mules. Well… complaining about P1 macro is like complaining that walking is too hard. I don’t know what to say…

Is that all you consider to draw a conclusion?
Tankiness, DPS, attack range, global map presence, regen rate, supply requirement all don’t matter?

Hitscan is great for micro on units. Hitscan on immovable structures only affects DPS and nothing else. And arguing raynors bunkers out-DPS zertuls cannons is delusional.

Point defense drones show up in 1 out of ~50 mutators. That should not be a major consideration if you ask me, but fine… i’ll bite, since i never had any issue with them…

Pick one of zeratuls best top bar options: the tesseract monolith.

Stasis beam is major crap anyway, and suppression crystal is extremely situational and the same kind of fallacy for the same kind of players who prefer BH duration mastery over void pylon range even though it is inferior :wink:

Like with void pylons, the benefit of monoliths increases with every one you place and with every artifact you find.

Tesseract monolith attacks without projectiles, which makes them immune to defense drones. Their range is same as siege tanks so they can hit them comfortably from behind your cannons. Their AoE is massive so they usually hit all enemies at the same time. Their DPS against big masses of units is simply put - crazy. They melt low HP units… mass zerglings, broodlings, mass marines, even banelings - and yes, defense drones too, which have 50 HP.

2 monoliths 3 shot a point defense drone @0 artifacts.
2 monoliths 2 shot a point defense drone @6 artifacts.
3 monoliths 1 shot a point defense drone @7 artifacts.

And due to their AoE, it doesn’t matter if there is 1 drone or 5.

And they also stun - stunned enemies cannot use abilities - so defense drones won’t shoot down as many projectiles and evasive maneuver enemies won’t teleport as much.

The only case where i find tesseract monoliths a bad pick is Double Edged… cause they die, even with barrier and shieldguard heal.

16

Raynor P1 is great for infantry survivability, you have amped up marines and medics, as well as marauders and firebats. Very effective against:

  • Explosive Threats
  • Hope of the Khalai
  • Dominion Battlegroup
  • Invasionary Swarm
  • Towering Walkers
  • Classic Mech
17

Are these nicknames for enemy comps?

18

missing the point this badly

19

Yes, of course. There are different nicknames for any comps.

20

Que?? Who was complaining about that?

I wasn’t really counting that as static-d since it’s topbar & cooldown restricted, but I probably should. With monos Zera does have better static-d, so that should bump him up a bit for those cases where defense is important.

Early game:
1 bunker + 0 marines = 100 minerals, 1 armour, 600HP, 5 range, 6.98 DPS
1 bunker + 3 marines = 300 minerals, 5/6 range, 30.98 dps
1 bunker + 3 marines = 318.604600 minerals, 6 range, 62.79 dps (stim)
1 cannon = 300 minerals, 1 armour, 400eHP, 7 range, 24 dps

I guess using maths is rather delusional.
Naturally once fragment upgrades from Knowledge Seeker get high enough marines @ 3:3 lose out.

Two. See message above. Not a major consideration, but Missile Command is one of those which pretty much requires some defense.

Of course they’re worse, but do you really need to put down a whole load of people to boost your own ego?