Ive watched competitive starcraft consistently for 4 years and its clear that at the highest level the game is unballanced because of a small set of units.
Protoss
There are no notable protoss players who have won a major in years. Some may say that its because there are no protoss players good enough to take it but I dont think thats the case. Skytoss is the only real playable option in the late game because most units suck aside from air and high templar with storm and feedback with some zealot tanks.
Terran
Ghosts are too strong, they solve every major threat in PvP and TvZ. They 2 shot BroodLords, 1 shot infestors, 4 shot ultras from insane range, and will 2 shot any other zerg unit in the game from huge range which follows out of vision.
They can cloak EMP any unit with energy or shields that may be able to counter them and still have enough to snipe afterwards
They have the added capability to drop nukes which is certainly not overly consequential to the outcome of games but the unit is really overloaded.
potential solution:
snipe does singificantly less damage and you keep the effectiveness of emp
Keep snipe the same and remove the capacity for emp to remove shields and some of the energy drain. (theres no reason 1 spell should auto resolve a race and counter all other caster units)
Zerg
I think Zerg have been addequately nerfed. I think you can argue that the fungal changes could be reverted but otherwize theyre in a really great spot with lots of build variety and effective air and ground units but significant room for exploitation.
TLDR
Protoss sucks at a competitive level (ground toss sucks)
Ghosts are overtuned
Zerg doesnt seem so bad, open to ideas on changes (note im a zerg main, obvious bias)
Yep; and everything we’ve seen so far points to that being true.
Protoss pro players have actively stopped doing everything that used to win them tournaments in years past, and the player who is arguably the best protoss, doesn’t play offline. HerO, who is generally head and shoulders above the rest aside from MaxPax, is notoriously inconsistent with his play on a game by game basis. Sometimes he looks like a god, and other times he makes mistakes so basic that even a platinum hero wouldn’t make them.
Stats has the potential to be amazing (but I’ve not heard anything from him since the start of the year), Classic never really got back his former form, and Trap just returned. Showtime is nowhere near Clem, Reynor or Serral’s level, and Nightmare wasn’t even a top pro before Trap and Classic left, and still isn’t now. Yet, somehow Nightmare seems to be one of the few Protoss players who actually (occasionally) does a few of the things that Protoss players stopped doing.
I’ve already had this discussion to death multiple times both on here and outside the forums, so I won’t hash over it again, but that’s the short of it.
Skytoss is an ultra-late-game transition. Ground toss is perfectly viable and playable up to that ultra-late-game style, and frankly both Ground-Toss and Sky-Toss generally have the capabilities to deal with anything that the other races throw at them, provided they have the correct support.
Sure, they’re also the only effective late-game unit Terran has. Not going to deny that they’re to strong or overloaded, because they are, but how do you nerf Ghosts without also simultaneously removing Terran’s late-game play?
Honestly I think Broodlords need an HP buff; they’re really squishy. I don’t think that’s an issue with ghosts per-se.
Ultras are fast, tanky units both on and off creep. The range and damage is necessary, because otherwise Terran’s options for killing ghosts are, at best, limited, and at worst, almost non-existant. It also takes ~1.5 seconds (1.43 if we’re being exact) for snipe to trigger, during which time any form of damage cancels snipe. That means friendly-fire from tanks/mines, splash damage from banes (or ultras themselves), that means fungal AOE, or even just 1 attack from a zergling.
- to a limited extent. There is actually a range limit - IIRC 13 is the range limit and 10 is the targeting range. Most things on creep can cross that distance with relative ease. Off creep it’s harder though, sure.
25 energy to cast and drains energy while in use. Technically speaking, they can do this, in practice though, it’s almost never the case that a single ghost will be able to do that.
Snipe and EMP serve two very different purposes.
EMP is 100% necessary against protoss - and in particular HTs. In practice, the shield damage, while not inconsequential, rarely ever actually deals the full damage that EMP is capable of on about 2/3rds of the protoss units simply because their shields don’t go that high.
Also, shields regenerate extremely quickly, so the shield damage can be healed off quite quickly too.
EMP is literally the same as it was in WoL, and it was perfectly fine back then. It’s a projectile spell with a small (1.5) radius that deals no damage to life - only shields and energy, and it also has a cap on how much energy and shields you can actually drain (100). Being a projectile means you can still cast even if EMP has already been cast, though the time limit you have to do it is, admittedly, a pretty small window.
The relationship between the templar and the ghost is virtually unchanged since WoL, with the exception of the feedback nerf that occurred as a direct result of Zerg players whining about feedback 1-shotting max energy vipers.
The solution isn’t to nerf EMP, it’s to revert the feedback nerf from years ago.
Okay, so again, as I posed the question earlier:
how do you nerf Ghosts without also simultaneously removing Terran’s late-game play?
Nerfing EMP means you basically gut TvP late-game, which is already balanced on a knife’s edge (and has been for a while).
Nerfing Snipe means you gut TvZ late-game, with which means you generally don’t have any form of actually viable counter to any late-game Zerg unit.
Again, I agree that ghosts are over-tuned; the problem is that they fill such a critical role in both TvZ and TvP that is not easily fulfilled by the tools that are on hand currently, and nerfing them in such a way would require drastic changes in order to effectively compensate for that, given that functionally each matchup involving Terran is generally considered pretty well balanced for the most part.
As far as TvP goes, I’d personally like to see the return of Feedback to it’s former glory. There’s some things that can be balanced around maps for this matchup, but map design often seems to impact Zerg a lot more than it does Protoss.
TvZ is generally balanced and often hinges primarily around map design - I’ll admit TvZ is somewhat Terran favoured currently, but that’s not really due to the units, rather due to the inherently Terran favoured maps when versing Zerg.
the sad thing is there are a lot of options to adapt Ghost.
Simply because Ghost is an all round unit in Rts.
You can tweak skills.
You can tweak the cost.
You can tweak the stats.
you can tweak the versatility. (change autoattack)
Blockquote Sure, they’re also the only effective late-game unit Terran has. Not going to deny that they’re to strong or overloaded, because they are, but how do you nerf Ghosts without also simultaneously removing Terran’s late-game play?
EMP does 100 damage to shields. This ability does not require an upgrade, it is instantaneous, has a radius of 1.5 and a cast distance of 10. Also reveals cloaked units. AND ONTOP OF ALL THAT it also removes up to 100 energy.
Compare that to psionic storm which has a 9 range, same 1.5 radius and does MAXIMUM 80 damage over 2.5 seconds.
Compared to fungal 25 damage with a 75% slow and cant be put into buildings or transport units…
EMP is an insanely broken spell by all comparable metrics and should be gutted.
Blockquote any form of damage cancels snipe. That means friendly-fire from tanks/mines, splash damage from banes (or ultras themselves), that means fungal AOE, or even just 1 attack from a zergling.
Blockquote EMP is 100% necessary against protoss - and in particular HTs. In practice, the shield damage, while not inconsequential, rarely ever actually deals the full damage that EMP is capable of on about 2/3rds of the protoss units simply because their shields don’t go that high.
The point is that you can AO remove all stalker, shield which is 50% of their hp pool, all imortal shield which is 33% of their total hp pool, all zealot shield which is 33% of zealot hp pool, all tempest sheild which is 33% of their hp pool, all voidray shield ~45% hp pool, all disruptor shields, collossus and carrier and mother ship are the only units that dont get their shield stripped.
You are also never going to emp something then not fight, if you get a good emp the fight is over, no counter play protoss just gets rolled.
The point im making is that ghosts solve all problems late games, theres no reason they should auto resolve the most expensive zerg units and trash all protoss units in the late game. Zerg cant even play brood lord because they just get sniped and die.
Blockquote Nerfing Snipe means you gut TvZ late-game, with which means you generally don’t have any form of actually viable counter to any late-game Zerg unit.
The problem is that they counter EVERY late game zerg unit. Lurkers, ultras, infestors and broodlords. Thats one of the biggest reasons zerg players play such early unit focused army compositions, because their supposed big heavy units are just 1 shot by ghosts.
Despite how much i absolutely hate snipe as a mechanic and interaction between terran and zerg, I think I can deal with it if EMP is gutted because realistically my biggest issue with the unit is that they counters an entire race (protoss) and all late game options for zerg. There is no other unit in the game that does that, and why the hell should terran be the only race that gets to avoid having to deal with shields?? Absurd implication that Terran should be able to bypass a portion of the game that 2/3 of the player base have to play against (ZvP, PvP).
Blockquote TvZ is generally balanced and often hinges primarily around map design - I’ll admit TvZ is somewhat Terran favoured currently, but that’s not really due to the units, rather due to the inherently Terran favoured maps when versing Zerg.
Very few units have 100 shields. In practice, EMP usually does a comparable amount of damage to Storm against Protoss units.
Psionic Storm can actually kill targets, and its total damage is not capped by the amount of shields a target has.
Fungal has 2.25 times the area of both Storm and EMP, and that 75% slow (along with disabling Blink, transports, and transformations) is especially powerful for Zerg. It prevents the enemy from dodging or escaping spells, and escaping from melee units like Zerglings, Banelings, and Ultralisks.
And out of all those abilities, which one is the one ability that can’t actually kill a unit?
EMP, by the way, is not instant - it’s a projectile. A fast moving projectile, but a projectile nonetheless.
Fungal has a radius of 2.25 and is arguably a more powerful spell than EMP because of the fact that it slows units by 75%.
EMP literally doesn’t need to be changed at all.
Archons require 3 EMPs to fully strip shields. What’s your point.
There are absolutely situations in which you EMP and don’t fight - situations in which you’re trying to buy time, for example, because they’re on your side of the map and you’re not ready to fight yet.
And yet despite this statement, the number of times we’ve seen protoss players get EMP’d and win a fight - or multiple fights - is actually pretty good. It’s dangerous for a protoss, sure, but it’s not unwinnable.
Because:
Terran units produce and build slower than both Protoss (warpgate/Chrono) and Zerg units (larvae - en-mass production).
Terran units are also considerably squishier than Protoss units and while generally not quite as squishy as Zerg compositions, the inability to produce as fast as Zerg units can means that they also can’t simply throw units at the problem like Zerg players do, and the Terran army is significantly less mobile than the Zerg armies that face Protoss units.
The Protoss Deathball becomes literally unkillable as Terran without EMP; the sheer amount of splash damage that the race can field makes an engagement impossible without it, and unlike Zerg, Terran doesn’t have the ability to displace key units to pick them off, nor do they have the ability to teleport their army around the map with Nydus Worms. This means your ability to slowly dismantle the deathball piecemeal is effectively non-existant, and you have no actual way to force a protoss to retreat if they’re on your side of the map that isn’t a doom drop.
Mech without EMP is completely non-viable versus Protoss, effectively removing a significant chunk of the bulkier units that Terran might otherwise have been able to use against protoss, and even with EMP it’s only somewhat viable.
Protoss regenerate shields extremely quickly; as mentioned before EMP is incapable of any actual permanent damage, and even without EMP, the majority of Protoss units are still tankier than the majority of the Terran arsenal.
You’re never going to blanket EMP a protoss army unless the key units that need to die aren’t there. You’ll specifically EMP Disruptors and High Templar first, then Colossus, then Archon in that order.
PvP is a mirror matchup, so this matchup is effectively irrelevant when it comes to the other races “dealing with shields” as you’ve put it, because both sides have to deal with shields.
I’m aware of that, but that still doesn’t address the point at hand, namely that Terran can literally never play late-game vs Zerg OR Protoss ever without Ghosts.
A big reason (and certainly not the only one) for the fact that ghosts are as versatile as they are, is because Terran’s production isn’t. It’s extremely costly, and extremely time and space consuming to build. Transitioning from Bio to Mech is doable, but the transition is literally several minutes long, and requires you to effectively start from scratch with upgrades, while also trying not to die to a far more dangerous Zerg than in the early game. And even once the Terran has made the transition, ghosts are still necessary for the Mech army to be capable of dealing with the late-game Zerg army, or the Zerg player just gets to straight up face-roll the Terran.
I really don’t see army on Zerg can roll Terran army.
Only strength Zerg has is storage of larva outside of that Terran can keep semi close production it only falters on if Zerg is able destroy Terran army even if it cost Zerg army since Zerg been storing up larva.
But ghost can take out 6 to 8 pop for being 2 pop. 20 ghost can take 120 pop or 160 pop.
Right now only unit is ling since it’s only 2 pop. Maybe ghost of snipe needs more restrictions on what they can target.
Why do terrans Love this “Argument” so much ? Its Not Like its relevant in this Case. You have a massive Army behind and EMP Just disables any Attack coming from protoss in this Situation because it would be death.
Its the Same Argument that fungal often doesnt kill a unit. Yeah but the effect of nearly rooting does…
The spellcasters dont exist in a vacuum. Also its like saying you didnt die because i shot you, you died because of bloodloss. I mean like, duh.
Same here.
Yes this is technically correct but beating around the bush. Its like saying “hey its not instant its just at the speed of light”
Maybe we could try to Nerf EMP and remove disruptor? Maybe pvt would then be fun to Play and to See.
Telling terrans that their Antidote to all Units and all races is Strong is so insanely hard. Telling them it might be too strong is impossible.
I thought protoss should be the Race with the best spellcasters…but Out of all 3 races they have the worst spellcasters. Kinda sad. Ghost>Viper>ht.
Because unlike fungal, EMP’s inability to effect hull damage on a unit without any otherwise adverse effects is actually an important point. You’re not slowed, and you’re not prevented from attacking like you are with Interference Matrix; you can retreat at any time, and you can still stutter-step and cast abilities that don’t require energy specifically.
You’re not “Disabling any attack” - disruptors can still cast, and even if you hit templars, HTs frequently need to be double-tapped with EMP to ensure that they don’t cast. Sentries are almost never a target at all.
As previously stated, you’re focusing EMPs on the most dangerous targets first - you’re not simply blanket EMPing the Protoss army, and about 2/3rds of the army EMP can’t actually do it’s full damage anyway.
Plus there’s the shield regeneration to consider as well.
Fun fact, For 5 of the last 6 months PvT has had a ~52+% win rate for Protoss, with last month being almost 56% in the matchup.
You brush it off, but it’s something that actually matters significantly; because it’s a projectile, a Terran player has to be extremely quick on the cast - Storm and Feedback are both instant. If you cast them both at the same time, you’re still getting the storm off. If you cast it a fraction of a second later, you’re still getting the storm off, since it happens before the EMP lands.
It’s particularly pertinent when you’re pairing Templar with Prisms because the timing between prism drop and storm cast is very short, and the window in which to EMP a templar is even shorter, such that the projectile matters a lot. You’re also attempting to do this at max range as well since the prism will almost never actually be in your firing range, or in it long enough that you can snipe it.
Then again, prism control isn’t really something Protoss players are known for these days, so…
I mean, I guess; again, I don’t think EMP needs to be nerfed at all - the only thing that’s really changed about the relationship between EMP and HTs is the fact that feedback is 2-1 damage ratio now, rather than 1-1. EMP wasn’t OP back then, so why is it now?
I still stand by my earlier statement - reverting the feedback nerf would solve any minimal issues that Protoss has with ghosts currently. Specifically, this would mean that ghosts only require 100 energy to 1-shot, rather than maximum energy, making it significantly harder to retain larger ghost counts, while also allowing for rapid-fire feedbacks to be much more effective.
I realise that the idea of reverting the feedback nerf might be somewhat controversial for people though.
Protoss was supposed to be the race with the strongest deathball, rather than the strongest casters. But the game has changed significantly from what it was in WoL. Still, despite that, Protoss definitely has what I would consider the most difficult army to counter (up to a point). Zerg has the largest army, and Terran generally has, I think, the most versatile army.
Each of those casters serve very different purposes, though the purpose of the ghost is somewhat contextual within the matchup.
Now you brush the effect off. You are simply saying, hey its actually not doing much.
Preventing an attack is extremly important. If you are on a timer and need to attack and the terran emps you, you are simply dead because neither can you realistically attack nor is it an option to wait.
And that argument is veeeeeery big. Disabling an attack (also btw disabling shield battery/shield battery overcharge or recall is actually very big too) is extremly important. You simply cannot engage into a terran anymore. A protoss is having a hard time attacking into a terran even without ghosts (tanks/libs/sims city and the actual reason protoss needs to tech up and get splash aka. bio army too!). With ghosts there is simply no possibility for a protoss to actually attack.
And thats why we see a) disruptor and b) 2000 battles everyhwere on the map and a guranteed macro game for terran or he actually dies to the only viable all in build with 4 gate blink. While b) might be fun to watch it might not actually be cool for a protoss to be forced to do that while a) is no fun for anybody. not even the spectator
actually yes…you kinda are. i mean its not like every spell is casted with 100% care. I mean look at all the storms going into nothing or hitting 2 marines and the casters are like OMG WHAT THE FFF THOSE STORMS THEY HIT EVERYTHING. Jesus. The caster hype is very off in most cases when it comes to storms. But anyway. Same thing is with emp too. You actually can throw them around more carelessly than you are admitting right now. Obviously you still need to aim them but its not like its game ending if you dont land them…storm on the other hand is actually rather game ending if they dont land…thats whats making it more funny when we see so many storms not landing, lol.
It is not like its hard to hit a emp at all. Its just simply too big and very fast moving and the ghost is also much quicker than the ht. I mean i dont accept the “dance” of ht vs emp at all. Not one bit. It would be delusional to think this is actually close Its even stated on liquipedia.
Fun fact, the winrate of protoss vs terran is abyssmal in every last of the like 20 premier tournaments and pros have actually noted and adressed the poor state of pvt. Disagreeing with this means disagreeing with the balance council. I mean before the widow mine patch pvt was heavily t favored. Now, not so much but maybe its time to reshape the unit interactions? Maybe just maaaaybe we should ask what does aligulac actually use as data and whats it worth for?
Yeah because its very very difficult and the reward is actually rather, meh. A well placed nova can do the same but more reliable. The reason why we dont really see that much storm is well…how to put it? It sucks They are cool and all. I also use them and like them and below pro its still a very good spell i admit. But on pro level it sucks. Its not like you are somehow smarter than maxpax. If you tell maxpax to use storms he prolly aint saying “duuuh, never thought of that, im so dumb”. And i dont think the guy who is famous for being a micro god plus multitask god needs to be told by you to simply step the warp prism game up.
We always see ghosts in tvp (well lol tvX) but we rarely see actual good use of high temps anymore. And thats why i said its stupid that somehow freaking TERRAN (?!) has a spellcaster that is good vs like every race and every unit that is on top of the spells a very good unit and plus that terran even has bio, too. The synergy is just nuts
Well. Except. Its never bad to have ghosts as they are good vs any unit and any race. Well ok not vs terran i guess.
The balance council stated some time ago that they dont want those single units that can counter or beat everything. Thats why they heavily nerfed carriers and broods. Maybe ghosts will live up to the same fate. But obviously something else would be buffed.
I mean obviously. I wont change your mind. And obviously its agree to disagree. But there is a reason why right now the most hated and voted most strongest unit currently is the ghost.
Not really though? It’s one of those things that used to differentiate a good protoss player from a great protoss player; and it made massive differences in fights when players used to do it. It is, for lack of a better term, a lost art. It’s one of several, in fact.
Good warp prism control in general is a lost art for Protoss pros, given the number of games we see them throw them away (often in a situation they have no reason to do so, and sometimes directly losing them a won game as a direct result (A particular Dark vs HerO game on Crimson Court always comes to mind every time I mention this).
And logically, there’s no real reason for them to reneg on such control, especially when prism control is one of the few things protoss has that actively scales with control in the same fashion as Blink, for example.
Bruh, MaxPax is one of 3 protoss players I’ve seen who actually does use it on occasion, with the other being Nightmare (who used it very successfully against Byun a little while back) and HerO, who absolutely smashed Clem with it a prior to ESC and 3-0’d him - despite some absurd misplays from him.
Frankly speaking, you also don’t see a lot of good Protoss anymore either, but that’s another subject.
I’ve got a lot more to say, but honestly, I think we can just leave it here, because getting into this particular debate really doesn’t matter one way or another knowing that neither of us will really be inclined to shift our view even slightly.
ok. im at loss for words. if you think you know better than the best protoss players then yeah ok. all protoss pros should maybe get some coaching from you since they have gotten so bad in recent years.
On. Occasion. Not staple usage like ghost. its like saying is mech unviable. It wins on occasion but its not a good use.
True. They all left because the race is toast for 6 years. Or they all just mysteriously got worse and just need coaching from you. you can make a fortune, i guess.
Me too. But that would be a waste. I cannot discuss with someone who obviously knows better than all pros. im a nobody compared to that.
Trendline for the past year shows TvZ going up and up. It’s probably more the maps than anything else. But yes the ghost is pretty strong. The bigger issue is the style of maps are very good for terran. Every map is cramped (short rush distances) and squated (you have to expand towards your opponent) and have lots of air space behind mineral lines (good for liberator harass) as well as long-by-ground-but-short-by-air travel distances (good for medivac drops). Personally I loved the new map pool even though it was obviously going to favor terran. The diversity was increased quite a bit even though they still stick to “good for terran” features like super-glue.
A bigger issue is PvZ which has held positive win-rates since mid 2021 with peaks at 60%, 57%, 58%, 54%, 54% etc. It’s important to note that the tournament format has a dampening effect on win-rates which means the imbalance is larger than the win-rates indicate.
Interestingly, TvZ had a long period of above-50% win-rates for 2022. But they weren’t as high as PvZ and occasionally dipped below 50%. Historically speaking, TvZ has been very close to balanced but slightly terran favored. The exception is the recent trend that is quite probably the map pool.
I am 95% certain the maps were selected for the purpose of nerfing serral. I think the people in charge quite literally cannot think logically & that they base their interpretation of balance entirely on the finals of premier tournaments. It’s not just a lack of mathematical / statistical experience, it’s deeper than that because they can’t see how illogical it is to extrapolate based on 7 data points. It’s the definition of a hasty generalization. They can’t think logically on a very fundamental level. That begs the question of how on Earth they were allowed to balance sc2. You’d think there should be an interviewing process that investigates their abilities but apparently not.
True. But there is a possibility that it get denied if other nexi dont have Energy. Was an example that Ghosts could do almost anything.
I mean cmon. Wtf is the Ghost ? It can Nuke. It can Snipe. It can drain Energy and shield. Its pretty tanky and heavy hitting for such an Important unit and gets healed by synergy thats already there. It Counters all other spellcasters very well and you dont even need to Research EMP or snipe and it Starts with 75 Energy so its ready to Snipe or emp from the get Go plus its only 2 supply and only Takes 29 Seconds to build.
And terrans get pissed off If someone mentions how Strong of a spellcaster it is and it might be overtuned for current Times where the Balance council tries to make the Game less dependant on single Units. I mean cmon. Its Not cool to Look at lategame tvz to only See Ghosts.
What about adding Psionic damage to fg say double fg damage so Zerg would have decent counter ghost and force ghost use emp instead snipe.
Then on Protoss you can add aoe on fb that drains energy . This be good and bad for Protoss. Since remove energy from cluster of ghost but only kills one.
If we assume that a 1.0 ratio damage/energy ratio is too much damage, it is still possible to go for an intermediate value such as 0.6, 0.75, or 0.8. That would kill Ghosts at 167, 134, or 125 energy respectively; and at 0.75 and above it becomes possible to 1-shot Vipers under some conditions. There is little reason not to try it.
If the Ghost is a problem, it is better to just nerf the Ghost. Increasing the supply to 3 or changing the Ghost’s spells to deal damage over time (rather than instant) are some simple suggestions.
I don’t think that Fungal needs this kind of bonus, considering that Fungal is already a very powerful utility spell. Maybe reverting Fungal’s total damage to 25 +5v. armored would fit though.
This could be far too much of a buff considering that Feedback is a full energy drain and EMP drains a limit of 100. You would have to make a number of changes to Feedback in order to justify turning it into an AOE.
See problem ghost is 100% effective and cheaper then all Zerg units. If count what they counter.
Only thing might be effective is ling.
So it’s be fair if Zerg would have some what effective solution. Problem nerf say 3 pop.
It still can kill equal it’s pop so still become still highly effective. Which still Zerg doesn’t have good solutions but if Zerg has better solution.
Since Terran has one unit that psionic fg would be best since it do it.
Zerg no real need go massive infestor but if do one infestor .
Now looking fb you 1 emp takes out 100 but every unit From ground and air that’s 50% of there protection instantly gone.
It just means don’t cluster up that energy based units Terran has 3 which is ghost, medivac and banshee.
But it’s fair if toss has harder counter then what it all ready has.
Its even stated on liquipedia.