Why is it that in Co-op, Phoenixes and Mirages can’t pick up Hybrids, but in the WoL and LotV campaigns, they can? If you could pick up the Hybrids with their Graviton Beams, they would become immensely more useful.
Not really upset by it, but just… Something I’ve always wondered.
I’m pretty sure that the hybrid in In Utter Darkness weren’t heroic, so they weren’t immune to CC abilities such as phoenix lift.
He raises a good point though. Phoenix and their variants are niche and fun builds.
If we just tweak that one bit, their usefulness becomes so much more by being able to disable several mutator effects.
I am all for this idea.
In WoL, the hybrids aren’t heroic. In LotV and coop, they are. Graviton beam also changed to be manual cast + energy + channeled to autocast + cooldown + “fire and forget”
I wouldn’t mind a buff to Phoenixes and mirages like this. Disruption web and disabling cloud already completely lock down hybrid.
Would be ok if this bubble don’t lift hybrids, but allow them to attack it.
If the bubbles don’t lift, the Phoenixes can’t attack. It makes them useless against 80% of the Hybrids.
Thx captain obvious, if it wasn’t true, where won’t be my suggestion here. How it may be implemented is just a detail - giving temporary air tag to unit or any other way it’s possible. Because stunning hybrid is very strong. It was the way i won that mission in Wings Of Liberty.
The only things I can think of is allowing the lift on smaller Hybrids, and having the bigger Hybrids be targetable by air-to-air?
That’s my best guess if you can’t just lift them up.
Red ones are pretty big to be made air and ground both already. Dominators? Maybe, but they aren’t that big. It will make them very vulnerable for any AA.
Quite a number of abilities in WOL does not have restriction against Heroic and Massive type units which is why Gravity lift can pick up Ultralisk and Heroic.
The Rock, Scissor and paper counter in WOL back then is very harsh. You either has the counter or you lose your army.
I remember Immortal Hardened shield blocks Yamato. There are also crazy stuff like Mind Control Ultralisk and thing.
Ultralisk couldn’t be lifted in Wings of Liberty.
In the Campaign it could.
It can’t…
How is any of this relevant?
Either you want this feature or you don’t. Provide some solid evidence, instead of just saying “it’ll be just too OP”.
There are just 2 commanders with this potential. Phoenix from Artanis and Mirage from Karax. Let’s take a good look hmm?
Artanis - Phoenix:
Chances of phoenix “abuse lift” hybrids? Unlikely, because the player not only has to balance a much harder build, they have to balance the use of Graviton. Their DPS compare to other Artanis builds still fall far short. For all these reasons, even giving this feature would not create an abuse.
On the other hand, this feature can absolutely provide mutator counters that is highly needed. Notably against MAD, Inspiration, Transmutation, and possibly HotS and Propagator (these last 2 depending on what tag is being used).
Karax - Mirage has similar points with higher costs, less Graviton to use, but more durability. Extremely niche build, even more so compared to Artanis’s mass Phoenix.
So no, I don’t believe this leads to abuse at all. To execute these perfectly would require a level of coop skills - that said player would have and would already be able to deal with these way easier by using other builds, let alone other commanders.
Alternatively, with the ability to pick up a Hybrid, you could get a handful of Phoenixes to supplement the rest of your army, and manually pick up the Hybrids and let your Dragoons pick them off from the ground. There’s a number of uses with this buff that could lead to some more advanced options.
Hybrids would be a complete non-issue if they could be disabled by basic units. Only the Mighty Sam can make hybrids stand helplessly while their comrades die around them. I don’t think the normal blue hybrids should count as heroic though, just the teal and red ones. The point is to burn them down as fast as you can because they’re immune to normal CC.
So it’ll be like manually controlling Corsairs to lay out their disruption webs to immobilize enemies?
Phoenix can lift any ground units except for Massive and Heroic. The Hybrids back then can be lifted because they yet to have heroic qualities back in WoL.
Phoenix has potential powerful ground units such as dragoon, Reavers, Immortals etc so Phoenix doesn’t really need improvement.
As for Mirage, they could have their Graviton beam be replaced by “Aerial Shackle” (like Dragonhawk Rider from Warcraft 3) which locks and damage any air units in place.
At least they will be more suitable for air combat (complementary to Sentinels).
Okay, then how about this? To lift the heroic and Massive units, Phoenix needs to expend all 2 of its Graviton Beam?
That way players can choose to disable other non massive units automatically and must manually control specific Phoenixes to disable particularly dangerous ground units.
Immune to CC is not evidence to not have it at all. And having powerful compliment isn’t either.
Hybrids are easily disabled by Stasis Ward for example and not just Sam’s detonation charge. Or Disruption web, blinding cloud, or temp stun moves. Moreover, commanders like Vorazun, Tychus, or Dehaka trivialize them far more while still having complimentary DT, TS, Odin, and Packleaders.
Adding Graviton to that list improves gameplay and doesn’t trivialize it. Hybrids still remain a high threat, players who allow auto-graviton will not benefit. Players who incorporate key units to purposefully disable them should be incentivized and rewarded.
You don’t know what you’re talking about. Graviton could NEVER lift ultralisks. Campaign hasn’t been updated since its release, and you still can’t lift them.
I would prefer chickenator’s suggestion of just stunning heroic units instead of lifting them. Say you lift up a hybrid. Cool, you just need to deal damage to it. You know what SUCKS at dealing damage to high-health, armored units like hybrid? Phoenixes.
And you have just LIFTED THEM AWAY from any anti-ground, anti-armored units you would normally have to kill the hybrid. Immortals especially. I don’t know about you, but I would rather have immortals able to attack the hybrid and Phoenix not than the other way around.
But you are putting forth a very specific way of playing that would be detrimental to this suggestion as evidence.
Who plays Phoenix with Immortals? Where you getting the gas? And if it’s with Dragoon’s, it won’t matter and yet again a bonus. So I mean that’s overall super weak support.
And if you went pure mass Phoenix, now you have a way to actually deal with them giving rise to this niche build. There are a lot of pluses so far and the only “negatives” is the hypothetical “it’ll be too OP”… but even that is very circumstantial. Like who would go out of their way to make 5 Phoenix just to trap hybrids… trap and not kill… when they can use that same tech + unit resource to make 3 immortals or 7 dragoons?
Basically to me, this opens up some more interesting way to play Artanis and Karax with very minimal drawbacks.