Questions about Tychus in co-op

Hi guys!

I nearly always used to play Tychus in co-op, and stopped about when a lot of changes were made. I was hoping, if you guys have a few minutes, to ask some questions.

One, is Tychus strong enough to play the highest Brutal difficulty levels? Also, I’ve always been a huge Layna Nikara fan and was wondering if it’s viable to play with her in the squad on high Brutal difficulties instead of Rattlesnake. I know she’s been made stronger, but then, there are crazy Brutal levels and I know that a lot of people used to see Layna Nikara as a “handicap” pick for Tychus.

Two, I see there are now “prestige” options, but each one seems to have very serious negative side effects. Are any of the prestige options for Tychus worth it? And if so, which ones?

Thank you very much in advance for your help.

tychus is one of the 4 most powerful commanders (abathur tychus zeratul dehaka) so he can do anything and everything in sc2coop, even when playing solo (no partner).

nikara is okay but her dumb AI will get her killed a lot (or she will randomly stop following targets). Her aoe heal buffs damage of units, meaning she is good for mind controlled armies.

check out website starcraft2coop

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Thank you very much for your help!

Just to clarify, when you say that Tychus can “do everything,” does that include the highest grade Brutal mission?

Also, are any of his Prestige ranks good to use? Or are those best left alone?

Thanks again for your help! I’ll check out that site for sure.

the basic brutal is incredibly easy and even the worst commanders can solo them (without a team mate).

if you are asking about Mutations (“brutal +”) then that is extremely situation specific since there are like 30 mutators and countless combinations.

tychus prestiges are situational, you can just play the default tychus (prestige 0) for anything.

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Thanks again for your help! I really appreciate it!

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I never play regular Brutal anymore as it is too easy with Max level commanders with access to all prestiges.

For my preferred Tychus prestige P2 “Lone Wolf” I find even Brutal+1 to be too easy with a regular partner so I now really only play Brutal+1 with Tychus P2 if I’m helping a low level commander level up. Tychus P2 is also one of my top picks for Brutal+4-6 though there is a few mutator combinations that can undo him.

Tychus P3 and P1 have some niche uses against mutators that P2 struggles against like Black Death and Double Edge.

P2 play doesn’t need a healer at all as each Outlaw becomes a nigh unkillable army in their own right if some basic micro is applied (aim to be able to effectively micro at least 3 Outlaws at a time to get value out of the prestige).

Yeah Tychus is one of the most favorable commanders to level up on brutal lvl 1-15 or prestiege easily.

As well as zeratul VS a mastery and level gated commander like karax. (no fast expand/insta cannons/painful leveling),

Tychus by comparison basically mostly only misses out on +15% gun attack speed and odin nuke on the 1-15 grind. All his prestieges can be very powerful and he can be very fun to play and easy to level on brutal like zeratul.

Both Rattlesnake and Nikara can work very well. Outside of “we move unseen”/aoe mutators, i prefer rattlesnake for p0/p3. Nikara can make a good p2 LW healstation or be assigned to follow a ally’s army or a vega double healer Mind Control mc comp as well though.

Though, he’s not all strengths. Tych/nova tends to suck against killbots. The best feed is a scv and each dilutes non p2 LW upgrades.
And tych can easily lack non army options for sturdy static defense on DoN or some mutators.

For instance, on reviver mob mutations: zeratul can be nice for both strong his strong army + unit AND strong defence in tele cannons.

This can let zera easily spawncamp the corpse pool, keeping the mutator rez unit from rezzing easily, while advancing and spreading tele cannons to provide detection on demand. Providing strong coverage for up to 2-4 areas at once.

Tychus’s turrets have high dps, but are honestly flimsy and drain resources from his pricy but powerful upgrades. They get destroyed very easily, and have no inherent repair/shield system like karax/swann/protoss do. (Or even passive zerg regen)

You mainly use them to open rocks, kill oblivion express ghosts, and maybe shoot a missle or hunterling.

He’s great for base brutal and can work fine on weekly brutations. But im not sure if he’s necessarily close to top 3 best brutal+ 1-6 pick.

Abathur and Dehaka as well as Zeratul/mengsk/stettman tend to shine a bit with a variety of approaches to brutal+1-6.

Tych has a strong and versatile army, but mutators tend to favor anti unit mutations where karax /static def is unpunished. Nests/stellites provide vision, and one base economy can be sometimes important.

Killbots basically force nova/tych to feed scvs which hurt eco. Tychus tends to want to use 4-5x outlaw abilities at many times which can get annoyingly taxed more on microtransactions vs f2a following a f2a army for example. However his prestieges can solve many aspects of that.

P1 offers a lot of mutator versatility with more turrets and abilities for extended fights and just die mutators.

Many mutators punish armies. But turrets are rarely affected. Neither is just mind controlling a powerfully buffed unit with shields. You might keep the buffs, but it adds Mutator versatility.

P2 is notorious for being the speedrun or one base mutator solo enabler. Though its been nerfed vs the old +150-200% people often used to showcase it. It spikes up the apm/split army focus, but often can still have great solo brutation/speedrun results.

P3 often got ignored since most people f2a moved all units in one group. And what good is a 4000 hp, 10 armor 100-200 dps unit that arrived after your army already beat the wave?

Most people don’t put into the effort to split army control and split the Odin so you could defend 2-3 points at once. But it’s a incredibly powerful pugstomper in split army control.

For instance, with p3 you can often defend 2 objectives, or defend a Dead of night choke while attacking at night lighting chainfires for a 18 min soft carry 120/150 building kill clear with 70-80% of kills. A player just f2a moving p0 tych with 1 point at a time might reach 22-24 minutes instead.

Pre prestiege tychus was notorious for lacking p0 don solos, to the point one of the only known pre prestiege tych don solo was a 40 min long vid where both players flew their bases off the map. I think it was one of the only commander/map combos that nobody even bothered with.

Now p2/p3 Tych can often curbstomp don. But Tych still benefits greatly from micro/chainfire and/or multi army control on don.

If you want a standard all rounder comp for base brutal, you can nearly always use the core 4 for anything.

Tych/rattle/ sirius/sam

Upgrade priority: x2 rattle healing > (If facing Zerglings: Sirius 50 dmg suicide turrets) > +50 dmg grenade >= -5 armor bullets == Sirius aoe fear > Tych or sirius ult gear

Tychus can also benefit greatly from hotkeying all research buildings so you can micro his outlaws. I tend to use 1:Cc, 2:bar, 3: army 4: guns 5: eng bay 6: muscle 7: fixers.

But if you use p2, the hotkeys can often be individual outlaws.

I kinda find him fun and micro rewarding with many rewards for ability use and divergent playstyles.

Mind control fleets with tele jump yamatos are fun, Micro chainfire blaze is fun. Sirius turrets + c4 bombing is fun.

F2a spinning zeratul can get boring. Raynor stim stutter step can gets old. Dragoons are just fat marines with even less abilities. Stukov can sometimes let a rally point afk for him.

Some people think Tych is “braindead” over f2a armies, pointing to lack of macro.

But if the same 100 actions were spent building 20 supply depos and sending 8-16 mules or larva injects.
I think i’d feel bored after the 80th game of larva injects VS the 80th game of bombing a engagement, mind controlling a fleet, and starting a chainfire.

Mileage and personal playstyle preferences can easily vary though.

Though it’s undeniable a f2a + q w floor is enough to pass brutal with him.
I think there’s a lot of fun to mastering him with high ability use, p2/p3 army/odin/mc multi army control, memorized spawns for mc sequence breaking, blaze chainfiring, and sam c4 runs for him.

You don’t feel like you hit a plateau where apm has no benefit, split army control no upside, or better ability use didn’t lead to a quicker and more devastating outcome.

If you get bored of bioball raynor, mass air doesn’t change f2a gameplay past a tele jump. You can add all the marauders or firebats you want. They dont dynamically change stim stutterstep gameplay the same way abilities can.

I like how ability use makes him always seem quite fun to play and even his P0 off meta picks are often all quite good for p1 or p2 or certain maps.

If you’re looking at pure number of most mutators soloed though or fastest speedrun times though.

Abathur pretty much held (or holds) all solo speedrun ecords, Abby+Haka nearly held all duo records, as well as Abathur also held most mutators soloed records. But you never have to worry about resetting on air/bunkers.

Tychus’s full building clear time will often be terrible from his well hidden weaker raw building dps, he can’t sequence break without vision or flying, or grow 6 outlaws from biomass. And he’s crap at feeding killbots and gets taxed by the irs.

But he’ll often be able to instantly tele kill 4 waves, protect a ally, deploy a odin, mc a army, heal a ridicolous amount, open rocks asap with powerful full coverage early game and late. And often completely does everything you need for base brutal until you’re a top 0.5% speedrunner.

He’s basically the teleporting invincible ak47 commander of sc2. He may not be speedrun optimal.

But you’ll rarely find a situation where he’s not useful. But as mentioned for brutal+ or 2-6. There’s some more reliable options available.

His prestieges do add a lot of coverage though and pretty much any one can lead to a 900:400 k to 1200:134 kill blow out for stock brutal.

But so can a base raynor with 900:300 kill ratios. Individual micro/skills can make any commander excel or beat mutators with good partners.

After like 90 to 1000 most lvls can become just a flex. It can be good to pick a commander you find fun and enjoyable to play, but also a right fit as well.

I do think he’s fun with diverse abilities and prestiege gameplay styles. But yeah, mileage can vary, and he might not always be the most adaptable brutal+ 1-6 pick.

But he’s pretty dang fun and if we were just after meaningless xp a hr, we’d all be karax farming b+6 cradle or spamming 9-11 minute void thrashers. It’s fun to have fun screwing off sometimes.

Though i admit yeah if you know the brutation there’s still plenty he can smash through. 5 sec stun c4 charges, turbo healing, mc, there’s some pretty powerful kits in there. But very little beats top player abathurs.

  1. Yes, Tychus is very strong and because of his specific gameplay (heroes only) can almost ignore some mutators, but at the same time punished really hard by another. So Brutal+ is always a unique scenario to consider (usually he’s favored though).
  2. Nikara is kinda viable and really good for some mutators, but generally worse than Rattlesnake even after buffs because she doesn’t deal damage. And picking her as second merc after Tychus severely limites your damage output in early game, while usually there is no need for that massive amount of healing she can provide until much later. IMO picking her is a good idea either if there is mutator that requires strong healing or later in the game when you already have enough damage dealers.
  3. P1 - straight upgrade over P0 (exceptions are quite rare). Disadvantages can be somewhat negated by mastery. Well rounded strong prestige.
    P2 - insanely strong in a skilled hands, stomps almost anything with good micro and game knowledge. Disaster for F2-A-move enjoyers, so pick at your own risk.
    P3 - kinda meh. Nuke is too good to lose just for the sake of Odin wattling around a bit longer. But this is kinda personal preference and also can depend of specific situation you’re in. It isn’t that bad since you can only cast nuke 2-3 times max in single game anyway.

I hardly play Tychus anymore because he’s just too easy, he’s boring to me now.

If anything he’s too strong, especially for how little effort it takes to actually play him.

if anyone finds tychus too easy, start soloing void rift mutations. and if that’s still too easy, choose one of the tough enemy comp. and if that’s STILL too easy, add transmutation, avenger, etc.

I think another good litmus test as well, to separate those who know Tychus’s strengths and weaknesses, is to see how well they perform with him on [ Dead of Night] (DoN).

Take for instance, 4 players from coop chat. These are their Tychus DoN’s. Each might clear base brutal at any level. But the DoN pages often act like a litmus paper if the person is cruising on his strength, or knows the commander well.

Can you find a pattern on their loss pages?

  • Dead of night: 23 min | Tych + Swann | 40% kills | 23 / 40 building kills | LOSS
  • Dead of night: 46 mins | Tych + Zera | 20% kills |30 / 140 building kills | LOSS
  • Dead of night: 38 min | Tych + Karax | 80% kills |100 / 110 Building kills |LOSS
  • Dead of Night: 22 Mins | Tych + Swann | 60% kills |90 / 150 building kills | VICTORY
  • Dead of Night: 16 Mins | Tych + Lvl 2 Karax | 80% kills |140 / 150 building kills | VICTORY

“There’s no skill ceiling past f moving.”

Coop Chat: “There aren’t any ways to improve Tychus play. He auto builds himself and plays the entire game for you.” (46 Min Loss )

Coop Chat: "There isn’t a map for Tychus, Zeratul, Dehaka, Artanis or Kerrigan where skill is a issue or matters or speeds up a run. They play themselves on F move. (Profile: Wins 30-60% Kill DoNs, Loses 70%+ Kill DoNs, but takes 28-38+ Minutes long)

Coop Chat: “I only lost Tych’s Dead of Night since my ally was a awful and afked the whole game.”

  • “Obviously you need to learn to read if you think it was MY fault OR a skill issue. o He’s a easy dumb commander for stupid people, and there’s no skill ceiling for him past F moving.”
    -(Profile: Wons most maps except for 22-38 Min Tych DoN Losses/Weekly brutations)

o Chat: “Tychus is useless on DoN, Karax is so broken on DoN. Use him instead. He’s the ultimate defence even lvl 1. He levels on DoN fine.”
-(Profile: Very Enthusiastic p1 karax player. 40 DoNs in a row, back to back. | 26x 33-46 min Victories, 14x 14-52+ minute losses.)

While Tychus is certainly usually powerful in the hands of most anyone. Dead of Night seems to be a good litmus test of those who cruise on f2a ease, vs those who find ways to master/micro comps and negate his weaknesses.

* (Ex: Bad DoN Tychus’s micro ceiling example) (Skippable)

22-28+ Minute Tych DoN Strategy: They might solely F2a move, never use blaze or deviate from one strat that clusters all your units in one group.
o Auto attacking while occasionally pressing lit buttons without knowing what they do, may be your main strategy.
o Your raw building dps may poor, and your ability to finish a map if you’re attacked from 2-4 fronts at once, may result in your ally’s base lighting on fire and dying.
o But You HAVE a minigun, SO it obviously does good building damage, RIGHT?
– Why would a 300 light dmg spreading aoe inferno that spreads to other targets on death on a 400 Raw dps commander VS a 1500-3000 dps F2A army matter?
– Obviously dps is a skill issue, if you do more dps, it’s because that commander’s f2a moving is more skilled, therefore Tychus is low skill. If 80% of his abilities are really easy to use. Why should you bother learning the last one?

o Blaze has bad targeting ai you say, you don’t need apm. Why should a control group to position him, target fires, or spread them accurately be important?
He’s obviously a auto play commander, your bad allys auto lighting on fire every DoN game they play with him is obviously intended.

(Trimmed out micro examples for ex: 16-18 min 2500:300 K | 148/150 Buildings killed DoN. Click to show.)
  • Your Tych micro might be spent on 8 hotkeys with 3-5+ unit control groups to enable you to assault or defend 2-3+ Points at once, while also being able to simultaneously solo defence and solo attack if needed.
    o Ex: 18 Min DoN: P3 Tych + lvl 2 Karax: 2500:300 Kills | 148/150 Building kills:
    o Control groups: I: Main army Group II: Blaze chainfire control group, + III: Sam/ sirius bombing run control group,

– o Ally 4 photon cannon defence overran? 1. Micro one front to have Sirius replenishing ally’s overran defence with 4 turrets. Immediately double tap Blaze’s control group to snap to his field where you’re setting fire at west gate.
2. North gate gets attacked. Medvac main army group to defend as well while dropping p3 odin at south to defend south choke.
3. East gate is attacked, West choke attack is over. Move east while deploying a safety turret to west and then kill the wave, deploy a revitalizer to heal any of your afk ally’s dmged units.
4. Side gates defended, split and leave to use the rest of your main army to push, using a p3 odin or Sirius/Blaze on south choke to defend, burning your way to attack the east gate’s buildings, finishing the map on 18 mins.

  1. Optional: Additional speed in jumping between spots between maps can be added by microing vision scvs to travel to far off locations, such as North / NE spots to provide medvac vision/odin drops on those areas while W->NW / S->SE are being cleared.

Obviously this can all be overkill stuff. My native apm/wpm is 200-240.

Those are the levels of details my native thoughts go into strategizing games.

I’m keenly aware that many fourm players are usually above average or might compare Orange vs apples Han Vs Horner / Raynor solo clear times.

But the DoN example is used not as a example of a map where glass dps can burn it faster, but specifically as a map many novice players take easy tych victory for granted. Then often spontaneously die or light their allies on fire (or take 24-36+ minutes a win vs 16-18. )

Anyways perhaps i got a bit carried away, but yeah. He can have a pretty good base strength, but anyone who ever gets bored with him and f2a moves him around the map.

About just every commander is good with a player who’s good at them. And Tychus is better than most on farming lvl 1 11 minute long brutals than most.

But a lot of people who take f2a moving their ‘skilled commanders’ at 20-40 apm for granted tend to explode at 20-40 apm on tych don solos as well.

But it’s kinda a minor pet peeve when people say there’s no room for improvement or skill/apm can matter for him, and then their tych DoN is dying min 10-30 or “skillful advice” is making sure their ally can kill more than them.

I think it’s a good mark if you can carry a entirely afk player through DoN while handling defense as well and attack as well too.

Infinite Difficulty? Coop is pve guys. Ladder is right there. :stuck_out_tongue:

But yeah, brutal is meant to be a game mode beatable and soloable lvl 1 by a skilled rts player or lvl 15 by a average one.

You can get into E measuring contests but you’ll find rts skill levels a lot like discord gym levels. You could say you lift or bench 400 lbs, and find someone who says 400 Lbs is a beginners number, they do 600, and then the next guy says that’s nothing, they bench 3000 Grams.

I’m not ignorant to say that there aren’t certainly people better than us all out there, Rts sc2 is the game where esport tournaments and 20 brutation solo videos from Asia exist. But there’s definitely a few of those 3000 gram “benchers” out there who think of themselves in the head as a bodybuilder, and have the body of a twig to someone else lol.

It’s pve anyways. A major component of any pve game, td or rts is it’s hard to do the right difficulty between “easy” and “impossible”, without snapping right between the two. Td (tower defense) suffers from this issue even greater. Often i’ve seen “harder tds” make maps 95% of it’s players could not beat at release. 5% of players beat the map, they share a comp. And then the “impossible” map becomes “easy” to 95% of people who copy the winning strat someone else came up with.

In Pve, the floor to do what you need to always WIN is static, in PVP, it’s almost a endless scale and even a season 1 grandmaster from one generation will find season 3 grandmasters stomp them to the feet. Even if they were literally the top #1 player in the world just a year prior.

Do we overcomplicate pve vs pvp?

I think there’s a paradox, a lot of people will say they want infinite difficulty, but often times ignore the modes where it exists in practice. Take Pvp, ladder or sc2 tournaments. A lot of people play coop and lament “brutal is too easy, brutal+ is just too random. But ladder is too unfriendly to new players”.

Games like wildstar have tried being products for the 10% of hardcore gamers before, and found that a common problem is games need new player retention. New players rarely stick to games that start too hard for them to join. But often want games to get harder once they’ve grown and become used to it. If people want infinitely skilling difficulty, a competitive e sports where you’re only as good as the players you beat is the place.

But people in coop didn’t choose to play the pvp mode of a pvp game, they choose to play the pve mode, perhaps to relax or have fun or play with broken. That’s fine.

This fourm routinely had like 20 page arguments on whether or not 0.02 seconds worth of dps for a 75% slow or bc lord vs tempest will lose the game.

I think it’s probably safe to say, after a certain point of pve, just discussing some of these things to the death over 24 hrs will be factors of magnitude longer than any 0.02 second dps loss we receive playing the game with X comp over Y comp for a 75% dps reduction for 0.02s dps cost lol.

But yeah, Tychus is pretty strong for base brutal.

But yeah, Tychus is absolutely a pretty strong for base brutal, but so can any commander if you play them right.

I just like how much micro and ability potential there is for the guy and im often piloting my p3 to occupy 2-3 groups at once and microing fire and storms. That’s fun to me, but i watch a lot of people F2a move him on just 2 outlaws, afking with no abilities…

And yeah… They win most of their missions, but that definitely doesn’t mean he has “no room for improvement”, by people who kick him into the bin after 30-48+ minute don times vs 16-18 soloed.

Pretty much any commander since the dawn of time does pretty broken stuff if you play em right. And teaches skills that sometimes benefit all your other commanders as well.

  • Raynor was great for teaching micro,
  • Nova great for control groups,
  • Abathur was great for learning memorized spawn locations.
  • Karax p2 farming taught me that a 40% cheaper army still isn’t always automatically better than Zeratul’s. But his topbar is pretty good.
  • Tychus can teach ability management and hotkey and multi army awareness.

Any commander, serving as your sc2 coop intro can be your intro, and as you improve, you can mess with things, weekly brutations, speedruns, hard carry times, etc. Or just goof off and have fun.

It’s a coop game. We’re not playing 1v1 ladder here, do what you think is fun!

Hope you enjoy sc2, and good luck and have fun to all you future players out there!

(And yeah if you ask if my paragraphs make me painfully aware how much 5 minutes of typing at “brainless 250 wpm/apm” can get. Yeah. It’s sobering how easy it is dump your thoughts on a page, when 250 words per minute is just the speed of your native thought processes.)

I’ll have you know some of us enjoy long DoNs on purpose.

Since we’re on a topic about Tychus as commander, yeah I can imagine how someone, trying to organize the biggest chain reaction with Blaze propagating fire, would have to slow down deliberately the killing so there’s still a crowd generated by the time the required upgrades are bought :fire: :smiling_imp: :fire:
Must communicate with ally of course.

Practice more on Tychus on hard difficulty. When it reaches the mastery level, go mutations on brutal.

Problem with Nikara is you constantly gotta babysit her and the healing is usually not needed on brutal as you simply blast stuff instead and let sirius cannons tank. You also end up losing dmg if you take her, rattlesnake at least provides atk speed for the group and attacks.

She is however really useful when youre low lvl tychus lvling on brutal.

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Main use for Nikara is healing through Double Edge, Black Death or other mutator that does a lot of damage. Still probably want Rattlesnake first.

or play P2 and never let your ally get a kill. That’ll show 'em.