So I finally decided to give Artanis a try. Quite a few of his units are unlike other Protoss I played thus far (all of them, actually), namely:
After Dragoons get their range upgrade, I noticed they become less likely to engage in combat with enemy units. Is it because they’re firing far from frontline hence they no longer prioritize enemy units?
High Templars: Do I use them or just merge into Archons, since Archons can cast the same spells? I usually group Archons with Zealots so I can blanket the frontline with Storms and within the same control group.
Reavers seem to overkill, all the time, since Scarabs take time to travel and might target the same enemy unit. I usually build 4 just for some AoE, is it that good number?
How necessary are Tempests? They cannot Disintegrate the same enemy unit and they fire slowly, do I use them just for sieging?
It depends. If it just for storm and you can keep them alive then not making archons is better. Especially for P1.
Yes, you’ve got the right idea, a few or even none at all depending on circumstances. Though with P1 on DoN they’re really good at defending.
Necessary, no, but they can be fun and situationally great. For example, on this week’s mutation you could use them to snipe props and clear the final base from the sides before sniping the thrashers. Versus trains you can disintegrate every carriage, though immortals are usually the go-to choice.
It’s due to 2 reasons, first being that most units stops moving to attack. Second being that just like when you have a ton of marines, units that are behind the said shooting dragoons end up not being in range and walks around until they make a concave. So you can get 30 dragoons but without “stutter step” or facing melee units, only 8-12 dragoons will do most of the dmg.
You can go straight to Archons, but preferably you use High Templars until you run out of energy or they have used guardian shell, so you morph to not lose them and get more storms to use.
This is because the full energy upgrade let you to get a full energy Archon regardless of the remaining energy high templar have.
Remember to have a hotkey just to select high templar so you don’t burn all of Archon’s energy before high templars.
I usually go with 6+ just so you can destroy hybrids fast, maybe play reavers in infested maps.
You use them for everything but vs infested or swarmy comps, but if you are going tempests, you should not invest in any other unit but zealots and leave gas to make more tempests, you need to reach the critical mass that will break any base you want. Tempests are considered one of the worst siege units, but it’s still a siege unit that does well in breaking bases, very much viable.
What might be preventing your dragoons from all shooting is the fact they block each other something fierce, especially at choke points. Try manually moving the front units up some, or form a concave and let the enemy come to you.
As for templars vs archons, it’s usually a transition. Two templars regenerate energy twice as fast as that one archon. However, if they run out of energy, or take big hit, you can then combine them to get a burst of energy, as well as more HP and renews their guardian shell.
If so, I’d suggest to just stick with Mass Dragoon and add a few Zealots as required for Whirlwind.
High Templar/Archons only worthwhile with all their upgrades and Mastery Points. Try to use their energy as High Templar and only convert to Archon if you have so many that you won’t run out of storms or they are being attacked.
Artanis’ Prestiges are all so different.
P1 is great for small army play with every units as appropriate except dragoons (as they get no benefit).
P2 is amazing with Dragoons OR Tempest. Dragoons good on fast maps but there is few things as satisfying as a maxed out Tempest army with Warp Speed Mastery boost ontop of an objective.
P3 is a well rounded prestige. However while I commonly see it combined with Tempest I would never do that (that is what P2 is for) and so I greatly appreciate it for a well rounded Artanis army.
The questions been answered pretty well already. I would say that as you play more Artanis, you’ll see mass Dragoons is a not a great strategy. For the exact reason that you’re wondering why. For the same reason answered by many that they body block, overkill, etc. due to their range and projectile weapon.
There’s an alternative understanding of this quote compared to what has already been said.
Some long-ranged units (dragoons at max range, Wrathwalkers (Tal’darim Colossus), Han&Horner galleons and others) indeed can be “out of range” for enemy units to the points they run away from your units instead of “engaging in combat”.
Comp isn’t smart enough to know that immediate units in the area can be bait units to shield more expensive/valuable ones…
Infested Walkers for Infested Siege Tanks and Diamondbacks
Supplicants for Ascendants
Marines for BCs
Warhound Turrets for the whole Outlaw gang
etc.
If they could be micro-ed, they’d either retreat, or focus fire on priority targets
Thanks for all the answers. I should clarify about my problem with Dragoons.
Normally for a unit with shorter range (let’s say Marine), they often need to move pass a choke point to shoot at enemies, which means they usually don’t block the choke point unless you have a really high number of them. For Dragoons though, because they can hit from so far away, they start firing before/during the choke point and ended up blocking other units. If I micro them to move closer or maybe pass the choke point, they miss out those few seconds of shooting.
Another specific example: A mixed army generally focuses on everything in the direction of attack, but because an upgraded Dragoon has range 8, they often stop in the track and start shooting at something insignificant, away from the army, and I have to pull them back to other troops. I’d be marching my army towards the three shards on Rifts to Korhal, and if I’m not careful, I might end up attacking the uphill while 4~5 Dragoons were still downhill shooting at a random Factory.
Thus, I ask myself as to whether or not I should upgrade Dragoon range at all, if that range often misdirects them. The added micro effort is slight, but frustrating when you’re facing a big hybrid wave and your Dragoons just decided to fire at a pylon on the side.
On a flatland without obstacles, I can just micro a few Dragoons at a time, opening up spots for Dragoons in the back to come forward. My problem is on other battlefields.
Absolutely upgrade their range they are one or the more powerful “tier 1” units in the game.
The trick with then is to use a bit of “stutter step”; that is, starting with an a-move and then after they attack force move them forward a few steps inbetween their attacks and then a-moving again. Thus they don’t lose DPS by missing attacks and still move forwards enough to let Dragoons behind space to attack.
This would be termed “advanced micro” (a simpler but less effective strategy is to use the stop command) but in a pure Dragoon or Dragoon/Zealot army there is just so much time to devote to this in combination with Artanis’ simple macro and the practise you get here with stutter Step micro will help you with so many other commanders. Same goes for splitting dragoons to avoid AoE attacks (much easier and forgiving with them because of their size, healing shields and general robustness).
Get comfortable with stutter Step Dragoons and then you’ll get so much more value out of them and only then consider adding other units (like High Templar).
You should still get it usually. Mostly due to its easy access and cheap cost. Citadel isn’t a “side tech” either.
That said, I would say it isn’t essential at all if you’re optimizing. Not in the same sense of:
You should absolutely get barrier shied upgrade if you’re using immortals.
Full energy/Storm on archons.
Whirlwind for if using zealots.
Basically, if you’re decorating your army with dragoons only for SOME AA, you can absolutely skip this entirely. Also, I assume you play 2-base, so really circling back to it slightly later is entirely possible.
Massing Dragoons has a very unfortunate self-limiting maxima DPS even with the best of stutter step. Their projectile and target acquisition/priority will inevitably overkill (often trivial targets). Their only saving grace is you can mass quickly due to Seth’s multi-warp-in.
In my co-op experience I only build around 8-12 dragoons per game. 8 if against land comps and 12 against air or armored land comps. I feel 12 is the maximum that I’m comfortable with that has minimal body blocking. You can tweak your own numbers to your liking but just as what fear said before me going mass dragoons is just diminishing returns. The resources would be better spent on Immortals, Archons, or even Tempests. Dragoons are just support fire to me.
Edit: On reavers I also see them as a little bit goes a long way unit. I think 4 is my max for them and then spend it on something else. Also I would recommend trying out Phoenixes as well, they are very underrated.
If you A-move them again, they should fire on the hybrids and company since they’ll now be higher priority than pylons. I end up doing this with other missile/ranged units anyways, so I’ve gotten used to keeping them moving in formation and on track.
While we’re on that, some swear by Mirages (Karax’ Phoenixes). They’re pricy, but tanky, and nice to add some sustained AA into your arsenal
Oh yes, They’re very good at tanking for carriers against a scourge air wave. And since they’re fast, the scourges would almost always go for them and negate the damage with their phase armor. Same case with BC comps; fly them in first, take the yamato shots, then pull back and attack with the carriers and orbital strikes.
For me dragoons are great but mass dragoons not necessarily because of the body blocking . I play Artanis more than any commander, I find it’s better to go dragoon + something else + mineral dump zealot than just mass dragoon + mineral dump zealot.
For it’s:
Zealot + Archon:
All zerg comps (except early roach comp), and terran bio. Archons with storm just shred zerg.
P1 doesn’t matter the map or comp. But go High Templar not archons for more storms.
Dragoon + Robo + mineral dump zealots:
Against zerg comp with roach, hydra, ultras, against terran mech, sometimes against PW terran depending on map.
On Dead of Night regardless of composition if your all is bad at defending . Mineral dump your zealots during the daytime with the power field as you want to be maximizing stim bonus. Zealots aren’t great at defending at night but they help clear quickly.
Dragoon + Stargate (primarily Tempest) + mineral dump zealots:
Pretty much against any protoss comp (a few early phoenix can help against certain toss comps but they die to quickly late game, don’t stick with ‘em).
Dead of Night if your ally is a good defender. Tempest can be out at night and disintegrate structures. No Phoenix, they’re good against infested but they won’t help in clearing the map.
Sky terran and shadow tech terran, again a few phoenix can can actually be really good early against Banshees, Liberators, etc because of light bonus but they’re going to tickle battlecruisers supported by science vessels, need tempest and/or lots of dragoons who do bonus to armor to take ‘em down (a few high templars for feedback is nice if you can avoid them getting sniped).
Dragoon, a few Immortals (no robotics bay / reavers), High Templar:
Classic BW terran.
Immortals (after maybe a just few early dragoons), Phoenix, Reavers, and mineral dump Zealots:
Miner evacuation. This comp works but it’s specialized for this map.
Zealot / Tempest:
Sythe of Amon and Cradle of Death. With P3 you can go with anything because you got way more fire power to push in without losing too much. But with non P3 I generally gotta go with mass Tempest and sacrificial zealots.
Thank you for your detailed advices! lately I find Zealots dying VERY quickly in late-game/harder mode, it feels as if I was using them like Banelings (with whirlwind). Dragoon on the other hand were very resilient, so Zealots literally, well, die like zealots for the sake of other units.
The same could be said about my experience with Phoenix, unless I’m facing a land compo. Even then, they die quickly unless you can gravity half or more of the wave, not to mention it cannot deal with land hybrids.
Can be a really nice strategy to send out Zealots 1 at a time to intercept incoming attack waves as their Whirlwind will have maximum effectiveness when they are getting jumped on by everything (and Guardian Shield ensues they have time to complete their spin).
Oh yeah I do remember reading a post here so many years ago. That Mass Dragoons + Phoenixes was a legit strat. now your goons won’t be body blocked as much. since the enemy wave is floating in the air.
