PvZ Lategame is Protoss favored

General Discussion
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First of all, I want to preface this by saying that PvZ is Protoss favored, in general.

But this topic is about ZvP lategame, specifically, because I see a lot of the “Protoss is on a timer” meme quite often. And quite frankly, this myth is propagating more and more imbalance. As I predicted last year when they were in the process of removing the IT and gutting Zerg lategame, PvZ lategame became a huge problem.

PvZ lategame being Zerg favored is a massive myth. This isnt 2019. Zerg lost the decade old PILLAR of its lategame in the form of the infested terran, and now its lategame is a punching bag in all matchups but namely ZvP where it’s really bad.

There’s no way for any zerg comp to contend with the combination of powerful capital ships, insane splash damage, powerful spells, ability to warp in reinforcements, superior range and the overall synergy of the protoss deathball design, without something as powerful as the Infested Terran, which by itself played the role of increasing efficiency, absorbing splash damage spam, trading energy for energy, “instant” reinforcement, and DPS equalizer including against air units. The Protoss lategame compositions trades far too well when there are no ITs to buffer.

Microbial shroud is trash so let’s not even bring that up.

Combine that with the new battery overcharge, baneling nerf, queen nerf, and potential skytoss buffs, and the matchup is in dire straits unless you go by the name of Serral. There is no way for Zerg to engage into a skytoss deathball, let alone get to that point safely when a Protoss player knows he can just threaten adept pressure while banking immortal archon, which if fails, will open the door to a protoss favored lategame.

The game is getting completely butchered.

Infested Terran needs a return, or Zerg units themselves need massive buffs (will never happen)

From the top of my head, here are some videos of Protoss players beating equal or superior skill Zerg players in the lategame

Sos vs Dark

Showtime vs Serral
https://youtu.be/Y6-T47L_mA0?t=18

Creator vs Armani

Astrea vs SortOf

Neeb vs Soo (idk where the full game VOD is but I’m sure you can find it somewhere if you really look)

Bly vs Gungfubanda

Astrea vs Ragnarok (Games 2 and 4)

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As a protoss main, I do agree PvZ late game is toss favored at my master league. Since Zergs at that level don’t know how to use Vipers correctly.

Zerg late game ultimate army is the hardest army to control AINEC

Toss late game Ultimate army control is hard as well

Terran late game Ultimate army control is A move win lol

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:joy: Using viper correctly can even dia1 it only player fault

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L2p please there no buff zerg needs since you cant punish 3hatch at 2:30

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Protoss and Zerg both need lategame buffs to contend with lategame Terran.

Instead they are nerfing Zerg in the name of helping Protoss in PvZ, when the only reason PvZ was Zerg favored in the lategame in 2019 was because Protoss lategame was nerfed because of Terran whine.

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Ultralisks are utter garbage and Broodlords are very easily countered.
Vipers are also easily countered while probably being the most difficult “caster” to use, and also the only one to require tier 3.

Most zerg units are horribly cost-inefficient and zerg “lategame” army is usually composed of tier 1 units (lings, banes, roaches…) with some tier 2 units sprinkled in (ravagers, lurkers, mutalisks…).

Top 1% of zerg players either win by early/mid game or they use Vipers like gods and hope the enemy makes a mistake.

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Weren’t you whiner against Terran. Where was Terran post i could see you whining to Terrans. Now you gonna whine yourself ? I bet you are hypocrite piece of trash and gonna say like: but i am not whining. So post people created, you literally stalk and flame every Terran post and now you gonna cry about TvP late game. TvP late game is Terran favored just so you know, saying as Terran. It depends if your economy takes hit, or not. But it is very difficult to get there, while not being behind in 2-3 bases and 3k bank…

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High IQ non bias post

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Garbage post. Glad you are living up to your username

Don’t you get tired creating new accounts over and over? You already got slayed and body bagged last night.

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Wow you so benevolent…

Funny like trolls upvote, each other, because they are sad people don’t upvote them hahaha.

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Zerg literally most op race in this game in any matchup.

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On pro level yes, but in gm protoss most favored. Protoss has highest gm representation constantly last 2 years and now is 38.5%!!!

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They literally nerfed almost every terran late game unit to almost nothing but god forbid the widow mine is cloaked after an armory now

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The only race imo that shouldnt complain about balance is zerg. Im assuming you are mad at the invisible man or adept builds but let me assure you, you can counter them easily if you just arent as greedy.

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Toss is OP to Terran in some situations not to zerg though IMO

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Than how is tos constantly highest represented race in gm for last 2 years ??? While it ranges even to 40% gm… Tos is very easy to play and you get third almost at the same time as zerg - a lot of quicker than in hots. Yes ravager/bane is op, but on that level, it doesn’t matter as much, you mass immortals and storms, which is a move… And zerg will be holding 2 base all ins, or 3 base all ins every game, even know it is coming, you can die to it, or adepts, which can be 2 places at the same time, it takes more skill to hold, than to do…

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Zerg community crying again. Terran problem is solved so now Protoss is the new problem. Who would expect…

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Protoss is not favored at any stage of the game anymore - except the very start.

  1. Protoss is favored in the first 2 minutes slightly due to the first chrono boost. This means Protoss has a 1-2 worker lead.
  2. Protoss is not favored in the 3-6 minute stage. Zergs usually take a third by 2:30. The EARLIEST a Protoss can take a base is 4 minutes. Zergs have a variety of cheese/allin strategies they can pull off at this stage. Protoss ONLY has one: adepts. If a Zerg catches on that the Protoss is in full macro mode, they will either drone up even harder uncontested or do a 66 drone ravager ling bane push/allin, which brings me to the next stage. Every Protoss allin is dead.
  3. Protoss is not favored in the mid game. Assuming nothing went horribly wrong for either side, Zerg should have a slight economic lead. At this stage, The Zerg is capable of bringing an army value equal to the Protoss at the Protoss’ side of the map and still maintain a lead in every category. Protoss loses all control of the game, and the only thing Protoss can do at this stage is hope they hold out with enough units and economy to counter push. This happens in so many pro games in SC2 that I’ve seen in more recent times. All the Protosses, after doing their adept harass, are stuck in their base, waiting to trade out against the Zerg with shield batteries. If the Zerg makes the wrong call, P pushes and has a chance to win. I could go on but I hope you get my point.
  4. Early late game - Zerg starts to pop out brood lords or lurkers. I’m not going to go into this too much, you are just blind sided by the difficulty of dealing with these units at this stage of the game. Protoss either needs tempests to shoot down brood lords, or blink stalkers with a strong ground army. As for lurkers, Protoss needs high templar and disruptors if things start to get out of hand. Maybe carriers AND high templar too.
  5. End game. Zerg: spore crawler line, ling runbys, brood lord/lurker/viper/corruptor. Yoink your tempest, yoink your carriers, goodbye mothership. All free pick offs. You can’t look at this stage of the game and say it’s Protoss favored. You are too blindsided if you see otherwise.

They’re on a timer to do damage, because if you let a Zerg drone for free, they will get a massive economic lead over P. What’s hard to understand here?

Infested Terrans were another way for Zerg to pick off T3 fleet ships for free. If this is fair in your eyes in any way, I’m sorry to say you are biased beyond help and this is a bait post 100%.

LOL what powerful ships? Oh you mean the mothership - the things vipers abducts and then corruptors shoot down in 2-3 shots? Carriers? Same thing. Tempests? Well if they make more than 5 tempests, just jump on them.

This is true - high templar and disruptors have some pretty good spells. So do Zerg: fungal, abduct, blinding cloud, NEURAL PARASITE.

I understand when Terrans complain about the warp prism - it does hurt them the most when they can’t gather enough units to properly defend a huge warpin. Zergs have no excuse, especially in the mid/late game. Because Protoss is terrible at creep clearing, you have free map vision, fast units (zerglings/roaches), and movable “static” defense. No excuses. None.

Trading 0 resources for some resources is NOT fair. Do you hear yourself?

This is just silly. You are just heavily biased and don’t see it. If you ask me why, it’s because you didn’t read the first half of my response.

Because Protoss isn’t allowed to win a single game right? Enough said. You are just biased and are probably complaining about a recent loss.

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Pretty sure some pros and Blizzard agree with you that the hypothetical late game, as far as unit toolkit, is even, if not a bit Protoss favored (Harstem commented on that, and Blizzard articulated this in their patch notes), but getting into that late game even or with a lead is difficult for current Protoss, and if you are about to enter the late game with a lead, there is a high chance you can and should just kill the Zerg instead to prevent him from coming back.

This is why 90%, if not more, of PvZ are glaives openers even when it is super predictable, because the other 2 routes don’t do sufficient damage to the Zerg early enough, outside of Zerg being completely unprepared for 2 Oracles and lose 10 drones for free. I look forward to the Stargate buff changing that, or at least be competitive with Glaives opening.

This is all talking about professional levels, laddering doesn’t matter, especially for Diamond or lower: better spend that 700 minerals in your bank without queuing units/upgrades and pretending you are spending well.

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Lategame is not a real problem, the worst thing is probably midgame. During lategame a lot depends on the players, their micro and efficiency, if the P hits the feedback key can keep vipers away and will not lose a lot of air units, and at lategame P has the chargelot runby and prism, they are really good, specially if you add some DT.If you survive mid game without losing a lot, the chances are pretty even at lategame.