PvT The reason mech/bio is prohibitive

General Discussion
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I’ve been theroy crafting yet again, and honestly the immortal is to cheap of a unit. And they can straght up beat a thor, hellbat, tank (unsieged), and in some cases seiged army straight up. they just walk through it like a hot knife through butter.

Immortal cost: 275/100
Thor cost: 300/200
Tank cost: 150/125

For the amount of damage out put immortals should cost more gas or terran mech should cost less gas.

the fact that immortals cost so much lower gas it is easier to mass. As a terran player I have to spam hellbats to use exccess minerals where the protoss player can keep making immortals. This is one of the biggest reasons that mech is prohibitive in the match up.

Also becuase these units do not cost as much gas protoss can simply use excess gas to upgrade/tech behind bulding immmortals…

Shield battery is another reason the match up in general is broken. I dont want to go into why shield batteries are stupid…

And then you have the disrupter which pretty much beats all terran ground units. Ive been trrying to figure out why this match up is so broken as a mech player and it really the cost of the units going mech compare to the cost of protoss units.

Protoss units are more mobile the mech, and trade far more effeciently. Then you have the mineral advantage. Ive been wwatch a lot of replays, win/lose/draw. And just about every game Ive watched toss is nearly double the probes to scvs or they have their 3rd base getting saturated while my 2nd is just completing.

This is just broken. I dont know where to being in fixing the match up. We can start with how broken the economy is. We can start witth the cost of units… Ok so mech is the wrong composition against toss. I should go bio. Then I go bio and face the endless splash damage compositions. I got to attack around toss. Can never attack straight into them. I am at a point where toss can’t be nerfed enough. They got an over buff in 2018 and the blizz team has yet to do the right thing. in fact they buffed shield batteries and void rays and buffed tempest…

I am completely lost on what should be done in this match up. its broken. Its trash.

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PvT is at 51,6% in december (h ttp://aligulac.com/misc/balance/). Out of 1000 matchups, Protoss wins 516. I don’t see where is it broken. If you find it broken, then in November, when it was at 51% in favour of T, the game was bRokEn and T couldnt be nerfed enough? Or maybe it is just a balanced matchup and TCF should stop whining? Just asking. Also, Idk how you can complain about buffing the void ray which was useless after the mid game and specially the tempest which is nowadays useless after the minute 0 of the match.

SB exists because T can mass too many barrack units and their all-ins are almost impossible to stop from a P perspective without the splash damage. If you want to delete SB you should propose something like an adept buff (a reasonable one would be turning their attack into an “orb type”, which would follow the nearest enemy if the original target is dead, so say goodbye to overkilling marines by 10 hits).

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oh and I almost forgot that. Immortals are supposed to counter marauders and siege tanks. In practice, 3 marauders with stim (300/75) easily defeat 1 immortal (275/100). I’m scared to look it up if 10 sieged tanks can win against 10 immortals. I could complain about that unit and whining for a buff, but I can understand that it is supposed to be used in a composition that helps it against the enemy army and helps it to be more efficient.
I suggest you to do the same. Try to watch some professional TvP matchups.

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Ive watch enough of those garbage pro matches where protoss is stomping over terrans. Aligulac stats dont mean anything, they are completely irrelevent. Or does it only matter when it fits yoru narrative. Accorrding to the sites creators the win rates does not in any way reflect balance.

Arnt you people the same that say you can have a pro player playing against a gold leaguer becuaes they want to qualify for the tournament when they are a noob. You guys take both sides of the argument so you can save face. The bottom line is the the match up is heavily tilted towards toss and you have to play 2 times better to win. I am sick and tired of playing games where they have a 3rd up by the time my natural is finished. I am tired of catching toss out of position and it doesnt matter becuase of recall. The match up is trash. Protoss simply has to many hard counters as to what they can do against terran.

Its a reason that people say that Protoss players can have 10 apm and still win a match in PvT. They are playing the game with all these handicap features. If you want to understand what balance is look at GM. Protoss has more GMs than ever. Every toss player is playing 500+ MMR higher than where they should be at becuase of how broken the game is.

There is alway an excuse to why toss needs so much. Well if toss needs all of those things to be successful then the other races need equally said things. Lets make it fair across the bored. If toss has SB then terran should be able to make planetary without gas. Or put up an auto torret that attacks ground.

I bet you wouldnt want that. Sounds broken doesnt it.

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I stopped reading the moment I realized you were saying immortals are OP in PvT. You are a straight up clown. Here’s your emoji :clown_face:

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The are if you are a mech player :strawberry:

Ive alwasy said that immortals are a problem in the match up if you are going mech. My stance has never changed. The more and more I look at it. it is broken. One unit counter all terran mech units and maurarders. The counters is marines or air. I would say its broken.

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Make more tanks… And if you’re scared of chargelots… Make hellbats… Better yet, make liberators. They literally counter all things Protoss. Do you even play this game?

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Keep in mind that the win-rates are generally based on the meta and most common ways to play, not specific strats.

Cheezetown is complaining about mech, which is not what the match-up is balanced around nor what those numbers are based on.

This said, I honestly think most of his complaints are unwarranted:

  • You shouldn’t ever be fighting Immortals with unsieged Tanks, that is a player error. Mech relies on a mix of Hellbats to buffer and Tanks or other units to focus and kill Immortals unless the Tanks reach critical mass (where they can kill enough Immortals before they get close to trade favorably). Using Ravens to disable Immortals the second they enter “their” attack range is also a good choice; although it does force you to cut down on other units and make more Hellbats. Liberators are also a good supplement to Tanks if you position them well (and by well, I mean setup the liberation zones to explicitly punish the opponent for trying to attack your Tanks).
  • He misrepresents the Immortal’s high mineral cost (which slows the build-up of the player’s overall army) on Immortals as a benefit when it is not. Thors and Tanks may have higher gas costs than Immortals for the supply; but the player can still supplement his/her armies with walls, Hellions/Hellbats, Widow Mines, more economy, etc with the minerals saved.
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Sounds like a you problem not a match up problem

You can keep bringing up a patch from over 2 years ago all you want it doesnt make it relevant. Since then terran has had stim, EMP, the viking, thor, libs buffed

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What havent you said is the problem in the match up? You’re just a salty terran cry :cactus:

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Ofcourse pro game irrelevant they are best but all human so even best can made mistake and lose too chesse

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Do MMM and a few mine witch it burrow mine in front of your army provoke zealot run to you and here are zealots are gone

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Thor
Strong against:

  • Marine
    *Mutalisk
    *Stalker

Weak against:

  • Marauder
    *Zergling
    *Immortal

So Immortal is Supposed to Hard Counter Thor. As Per Unit Information wat I Saw on Liquipedia Starcraft 2.

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Mid GM terrans being beat by voids and zealots…says more about the terran. Maybe terrans just aren’t as good as they think they are

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Aligulac is irrelevant according to Mr. Cheese

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Go upload replay where you win by only spam zealot against terran

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Nobody outside of this forum takes those numbers seriously

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I like how you linked a beastyqt video where a former pro player routinely does these types of videos. All you need to do is scout and you beat proxy voids

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Stop doing all-ins then

Toss army is the slower in the game (except T’s mech which is specifically positional), what did you expect? Maybe if colossus, immos, disruptors and HTs were faster we wouldnt need recall to defend our bases. Anyway when you do MMM against P you have to do multiple attacks, if you just try to trade armies with an enemy one that has disruptors/HTs idk how do you expect to win.

Thats because P is the race of the hard-counter units. P units are the strongest against some type of unit and at the same time the weaker against another type of unit. For example, with T you can mass thors against Z with some hellbats or just MMM against P and it’s fine, with P you can’t just mass colossus, stalkers, adepts, zealots, archons or any individual unit because a single unit just doesnt work alone. Adepts kill light units good enought but they dont do **** against mech, colossus the same, HTs the same, archons are good to tank MMM damage but they get crushed by ghosts, phoenixes can help against tanks, mutas, etc, but they almost cant damage BCs…

Well IMO it isnt the same to control 3 colossus and 20 stalkers than to control 50 marines, 15 marauders and 10 medevacs, T has more APM while controlling more units? wow incredible, maybe some day they could catch Z APM.

In 2019 protoss had the most GMs too, and we know that Z was the imba race then. You cant take GM population as an argument because of the IIIIII smurfs.

Toss have a structure that can heal with some limits and that is its only purpose. Wow, it’s almost like T needs to have some kind of unit that can repair without limits at the point it can make structures and units invulnerable. Could we call it SCV?

That thing literally already exists

As I have said, it already exists. lol

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Apparently gm/pro level players are such noobs that they can’t scount simple things like proxie toss play. I have no chance being in wood league.

The theory crafting is strong in you. The problem with doing this the gas needed to make mech play an option. This is probably why most people say that I am playing the match up wrong. can go mech against toss becuase they have better units.

Perhaps it should be or mech should be viable more consistent option.

If pros/gm level players have this problem then this is something else that I have no chance of keeping up in…

The match up is broken so there are many many things that need to be brough up. If you are going bio then you face the endless splash damage options which needs to bo toned down. If you are going mech you face immortals (which trade super effeciently or disrupters which you mind as well take your mech army and throw it in the trash. All of my complains have been about 3 things that toss has the make the match up broken. I’ve never changed from this.

Which I am indifferent. I still think they should cost more gas.