without touching a single toss unit.
lets buff the thor by making it cost 1 less supply and/or decreasing the cost of them. they reworked the immortal cost so lets rework the thor cost. I should be able to have as many thors protoss cacn make immortals and spam Zs.
could also give thors the ability to pierce or weakend sheields.
Make mech viable against toss. lets increase terran ability to remax going mech.
I am all for improving mech’s production capability as long as they reduce how hard it is to deal with it once they actually get to max out. ZvT the only reason it is possible to deal with mech is because you can massively out produce them and take over the map before they max out. But if you have a maxed out hybrid mech armor (Thor, Tank, Hellbat, maybe liberators) it is nigh impossible to kill. In other words i think to trade off mechs overall power with a faster max would be healthy especially for lower levels.
PvT i would avoid any buff to thors lest they become the all around frustrating unit it is in TvZ, Id rather they do something with cyclones instead
Just my 2 cents
TvZ could potentially be an issue. However, in PvT it get steam rolled. I do not like to play bio and I think bio sucks for numerous reasons. I am trying to solve a PvT issue. I think this would have minimum affects on TvZ
The only way cyclons would make since if they were reverted and they got a speed increase. As they are. They are only worth building in specfici situations. even then they suck at doing their job.
mech isnt that great in the other matchups either
Yes it is. mech is viable in tvt and tvz. I have 60% win rate in both going mech. I build 1 tank in PvT and most people consider it a build order lost
it can work but meh, i feel like bio is more solid and i usually beat mech in tvt.
Bio has more mobility and more dps. mech has more raw power. I think they both have the same harras potential.
When your going mech you have to be patient and you cant afford to throw your army away like you could do with bio… they both have advantages and weaknesses
Yeah I get it, I just would not like to see Thors dominate everything in any matchup (I really dislike the overall design of the unit and as you can tell I struggle quite a bit with them, furthermore I think that Thors are either useless or too strong the design does not allow for a middle ground). I do believe that the lowering of supply would hurt even more in a tvz late game since it would just make it more frustrating, instead maybe give the extra shield damage to cyclons or tanks would be better, I would not mind a speed increase on cyclones either as long as it comes with an upgrade, I think the kiting nature of the unit is more interesting than thors.
Maybe not at the top top level, but even then you see players like Marinelord making it work. But mech is actually easier to handle than bio if you know what you are doing, and it is very very complicated to deal with on the Zerg side if it gets to hybrid comp because it out-ranges and out-damages everything zerg has. The only reason it is kept in check is how hard it is to get to that composition.
i kindof feel like with mech you are at the mercy of how well your opponent plays, and there isnt many good plays you can do yourself.
i would rather use cyclons I like the kiting potential however, I am unsure if that is enough for PvT. the only way I see to make mech viable in PvT is to change the thor… Zerg has many abilities to deal with mech, infestors and vipers are really really good. in getting mech units for free. I dont think TvZ dynamic would change much. While making mech a little more viable in PvT. right now it is almost unplayable while toss has mulitple options to approach the match up.
Absolutely, because you give up the map, but mech is one of those “do not allow them to get there compositions”. That is why players at the level of serral and reynor crush it, because they are good enough to do that while getting decent engagements. IDK, not a huge fan of how mech plays out in TvZ, I do not think it is imbalanced, just overly frustrating at every level outside the top 50 pros. Especially when the alternative is bio TvZ which in my opinion is the most fun to watch and play in SC2
Which is fine. mech will get crushed at the top. and maybe it is some difficulty on the ladder. However in PvT mech gets wrecked at all levels… Even the noobest of noobs and just print i.a.c. or stalker disruptor and own mech… its riduculous.
Well Thors outrange Vipers so it is quite normal to end up losing vipers for your thors, which granted it is not the worst of trades since Thors cost more, but then you are left with the tanks you have to deal with. Infestors are good against thors only if you have a small number of tanks and no ghosts (which do get mixed in often), otherwise they just get blowed up. I am assuming a hybrid late game army here, not a pure thor or pure tank composition. Thors are not too bad on their own because of neural but they get negated by either tanks or ghosts.
Exactly Zerg has counters for it. so it should not affect TvZ much. However this would make PvT closer. As the match is now P is doing what ever they want. The longer the match up goes the more and more favored it is for toss. terran is on a timer. I want to see this timer removed.
All I see is Protoss getting wins that they do not even deserve. or worst yet having a chance in a game they are clearly losing bbecause they are toss and it P v T they get the win. rediculous.
Thors are basicly T3 Units,
T3 Units by design should be hard to deal with over-all, Making it easy to deal with T3 Thors would defeat them being T3, No just make T3 for the races (Including zerg ultralisk/broodlords T3) better over-all is whats needed
then nerf da heck out of zerg eco.
Toss easilly deal with thors with Zeals. or immortals, or disruptors. or voids. or carriers or tempest. Protoss has so many soft and hard counters to mech. its just stupid.
The problem as you said is that Thor obliterates Zerg T3 (Ultras and Broodlords) in spite of one being ground and the other air which just shows how insane Thor versatility is. I do not think having t3 units beat everything a good thing, they should be extremely good at one particular thing so it does not just become a race to t3 while leaving all other units obsolete, they should complement each other.
Funnily enough Mech is also very strong because usually in the hyper late game terran gives up most of its scv, only having the necessary for gas and mule the rest, making their army supply insane, so zerg economic advantage is actually offset by that if it gets there.
My post was meant to show you, that while counters exist, they are hardly cost effective or reliable once the Terran gets the composition they are looking for, I truly believe a supply buff to mech would break tvz, I would rather they buff an underused unit’s damage to shield to improve it against p, and ideally a more interesting and engaging unit than the Thor.
Broodlords actually beat thors if they are not supported by hell bats. and they do not beat ultras 1 on 1. If ultras get a surround on thors. those thors would be lost for free. Zerg can trade efficiently against mech. ling/bane flood can also beat thors if you dont see it coming.
so what you lose 5 vipers. if you take 5 thors. thats a good trade in favor of zerg.
Zerg doesn trade well against mech is when they want to head but into a wall of tanks. which is rediculous.
I dont see buffing thors to make PvT more competitive affecting TvZ in any significant way.
PvT is broken and needs to be fixed.